The Rev. Vosper Again
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BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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Why does anyone think that discontinued sounds any better than defrocked? Sounds like one of those badly executed yogurt flavours. Like lemon.
Tis from those wishing patches to fix up the flaws given in the initiation of mankind by alpha ... who was sacredly fey male ... off without the projected portions ... kind 'a like the death of the wee soldier ... deep in the vale ... sometimes a black fine lace ... used to sew up the connection ... and communication in a dense state of mind. That process seems to have worked to produce Saases of people ... now if we could sloe it down or impede the higher opinions with some preventative barriers ... fish bladders?
Many would not get the e' visceral -tive application ... as gutsy intervention of rebirth! I.E. put a kind 've sock o' nite ...
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Language matters.
Discontinued = no longer continues. Ministry stops.
Defrocked = stripped naked. It is about shaming.
At the end of the day the Reverend Vosper may no longer be able to define herself as a minister of The United Church of Canada. That is not the Church stripping her naked or shaming her. That is the Church saying that she no longer exercises ministry in our name.
The vast majority of members of The United Church of Canada are not ordered members of ministry. Being a lay person is not an insult.
Yes, it is discipline and not many appreciate being on the receiving end of such.
There are ways off of/out of discontinued service. Typically one needs to meet with a body and prove one's self eligible to be called again. Getting "frocked" again means you have to stand naked before a body (metaphorically at this point in time) and ask to have your shame covered.
Tell me there is absolutely no difference.
Discontinued = no longer continues. Ministry stops.
Defrocked = stripped naked. It is about shaming.
At the end of the day the Reverend Vosper may no longer be able to define herself as a minister of The United Church of Canada. That is not the Church stripping her naked or shaming her. That is the Church saying that she no longer exercises ministry in our name.
The vast majority of members of The United Church of Canada are not ordered members of ministry. Being a lay person is not an insult.
Yes, it is discipline and not many appreciate being on the receiving end of such.
There are ways off of/out of discontinued service. Typically one needs to meet with a body and prove one's self eligible to be called again. Getting "frocked" again means you have to stand naked before a body (metaphorically at this point in time) and ask to have your shame covered.
Tell me there is absolutely no difference.
(Personally, I like lemon yogurt. Forget which brand - Activa? - but one of them offers up a lovely lemon meringue flavor.)
paradox3
Peanuts Fan
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Anyone notice that Gretta is using the word "fired" to describe what might happen?
From the Observer article mentioned by RevJohn:
The colloquy, she says, “will take place while I am being fired by the church. I’m glad they are going to have that conversation, but I’ll be gone.”
From the Observer article mentioned by RevJohn:
The colloquy, she says, “will take place while I am being fired by the church. I’m glad they are going to have that conversation, but I’ll be gone.”
Mrs.Anteater
Just keep going....
According to wikipedia, the "frock" refers to the frock like vestments,especially those used in worship, like the albe etc. Taking those ceremonial clothes off , I would think that you are not naked underneath, but rather secularly dressed.
But, one never knows, isn't it always the question what men are wearing underneath kilts.
Admit, ministers, what ARE you wearing on Sundays- outside and underneath
chansen
Had a point all along
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For a minister or a priest, it means you're fired. No one is thinking the defrocked are literally or figuratively naked. And both are disciplinary in nature. You'd have to ask the Observer, but I'd guess they use "defrocked" because it is a known term that neatly describes the action that is being proposed, rather than explain what DSL(D) means every article.
What is important is that West Hill United stands to lose its minister against their wishes. The wording of "DSL(D)" vs "defrocked" is not important here. I'd have no problem with either term, but I hardly think "defrocked" is being used to criticize the process that got everyone here. I've been critical of the process, and I've been referring to it as "being DSL'ed" because most people here have been talking about this possibility for years. Most Observer readers probably aren't nearly as familiar with the acronym.
When under the power of Kirk (commander) ... you could be tossed out and join a larger temple ... once contained by nothing but Stars moons and other dynamic objects ... the perspective may be divinely separated like thought and empathy in a creature affected by fear and anger about being turned out ... denied and exposed as person of alien thoughts.
And few understood ... that there was something to learn from theis statement from beyond the closed moral majority! A portion of "the ALL" cognizance ... it goes on ... into a region beyond the tightly controlled ... or so they believed ...
Until the winds blows contrary ...
And few understood ... that there was something to learn from theis statement from beyond the closed moral majority! A portion of "the ALL" cognizance ... it goes on ... into a region beyond the tightly controlled ... or so they believed ...
Until the winds blows contrary ...
revjohn
Well-Known Member
paradox3 said:
I did notice that. While it is part of the whole pet peeve thing there has been more than one opportunity to see that West Hill leadership appears to be ignorant of the language and polity of The United Church of Canada. How that ultimately plays out in the follow-up will be for Toronto Southeast folks to address or ignore as they choose.
Having taken a congregation though a similar education process for Erie Presbytery I am aware of how it seems picky on the one hand and can lead to serious miscommunication on the other.
The Observer as an arm's length body does not adequately communicate United Church happenings if it refuses to use United Church language. Since language is nuanced it is imperative to pay attention to the nuance.
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Mrs.Anteater said:
According to wikipedia, the "frock" refers to the frock like vestments,especially those used in worship, like the albe etc. Taking those ceremonial clothes off , I would think that you are not naked underneath, but rather secularly dressed.
But, one never knows, isn't it always the question what men are wearing underneath kilts.
Admit, ministers, what ARE you wearing on Sundays- outside and underneath
I agree the term is archaic. Modern practices are anachronistic. The ancients generally did not have a wardrobe full of vestments.
So yes, taking a priests frock or alb or what have you would have left the priest naked and ashamed. Which was the point.
Is the rye point that we know little about Gretta's encounters with "the ALL" ... which in churchy curtailed language is obtuse and obscure for reason's the authority don't wish the common John's to be cognizant of ... yet some say thye know "the ALL" a mortal improbability given out short memes ...
I had a chance to have some discussion with her a few years ago ... I didn't go along with some of her impressions but then she didn't pay much attention to my experiences of life either.
One must be severely open hearted and open sol 'd to accept eternal concepts ... difficult for mortal views (these bean limited editions) ... the alternate goes on and on about virtue of myth ... myth being on-going ... like the myth of Psyche and other intangibles ... untouchable thought processors?
Mrs.Anteater
Just keep going....
March Podcast talk with Gretta about her understanding of Panentheism vs Atheism and what was and is going on at Westhill , including how her congregation deals with the current situation.
https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/progressivespirit
https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/progressivespirit
paradox3
Peanuts Fan
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Do you have any impressions of the podcast to share?
Mrs.Anteater
Just keep going....
I haven't listened to all of it, yet. HAd to stop in the middle and then somehow couldn't resume where I left of.
I thought it might be interesting to others.
I do understand the approach of looking at their basic truths that they can all agree on aside from semantics and build on that acommunity with a purpose. If they did this as a congregation and not just as a board or council, I would be quite impressed.
I have been attending a few Quaker meetings in my area lately, and I am positively impressed by their way of not having a creed and concentrating on a purpose. It also seems like they are broadly diverse and the membership in the local group depends on the consensus / identification with the group's values rather than a belief defined by a higher court.
Westhill seems to follow a similar concept.
I thought it might be interesting to others.
I do understand the approach of looking at their basic truths that they can all agree on aside from semantics and build on that acommunity with a purpose. If they did this as a congregation and not just as a board or council, I would be quite impressed.
I have been attending a few Quaker meetings in my area lately, and I am positively impressed by their way of not having a creed and concentrating on a purpose. It also seems like they are broadly diverse and the membership in the local group depends on the consensus / identification with the group's values rather than a belief defined by a higher court.
Westhill seems to follow a similar concept.