The Rev. Vosper Again

[paradox3]

Gretta has been known to lament publicly about the division within our denomination regarding her situation.

It seems to me that posting the Burdock letter on her FB page and her personal website will not do anything other than increase this sense of polarization.

 

[crazyheart]

N.S., says in her letter.
"Gretta is being treated the same as the 'religious authorities' of his day treated Jesus, who called them out on putting law over compassion."


Gretta as Jesus - a little too far, I think

This from the letter is very offensive No one commented so

maybe I am reading it wrong.

 

[Mendalla]

N.S., says in her letter.
"Gretta is being treated the same as the 'religious authorities' of his day treated Jesus, who called them out on putting law over compassion."


Gretta as Jesus - a little too far, I think

This from the letter is very offensive No one commented so

maybe I am reading it wrong.

You're not, but comparing one's persecuted (allegedly) heroes to Jesus is as about as rampant on the 'Net as comparing one's villains to Hitler so it's kind of "same old, same old" to me. Hyperbole, to be sure, and a real, long stretch but I've read more offensive things in my time.

 

[revjohn]

It seems to me that posting the Burdock letter on her FB page and her personal website will not do anything other than increase this sense of polarization.

That is the most reasonable intent.

 

[chansen]

It is a hurtful letter which has no place in the public sphere, other than to create the illusion of division and propel the ego of those involved and attempt to influence the decision makers by placing them under public pressure.

"Rev." Burlock faces no risk or consequences for her letter. She will continue to receive her pension (as she should) and will continue to do whatever she has been doing in retirement for the last number of years. Would she be so bold if she were still in active service? I seriously doubt it.

Gretta has been known to lament publicly about the division within our denomination regarding her situation.

It seems to me that posting the Burdock letter on her FB page and her personal website will not do anything other than increase this sense of polarization.

A letter of solidarity with a minister under review and potentially fired for what she doesn't believe, against the wishes of her congregation, is divisive? In that case, what do you call the review that could terminate her? A team building exercise?

I hope more ministers come to her defense. I hope active ministers are among them. I see members speaking up, but I think now would be a good time to see more ministers stand up and announce that they see merit in what Gretta does and what she stands for. It would be good for more ministers to publicly announce that no, they don't personally believe any more, but that doesn't change who they are or how much they care. Have them speak metaphorically about God and Jesus, just as many ministers speak metaphorically about Noah and some of the more improbable or violent parts of the bible now, with no repercussions.

 

[paradox3]

A letter of solidarity with a minister under review and potentially fired for what she doesn't believe, against the wishes of her congregation, is divisive? In that case, what do you call the review that could terminate her? A team building exercise?

The whole situation is polarizing, Chansen. Whatever the outcome of the review there will be unhappy people.

 

[Mendalla]

A letter of solidarity with a minister under review and potentially fired for what she doesn't believe, against the wishes of her congregation, is divisive?

Writing a letter of support is not, in and of itself, polarizing. This:

"Gretta is being treated the same as the 'religious authorities' of his day treated Jesus, who called them out on putting law over compassion."

most certainly is. It is creating an "us vs.them" mentality and framing the church authorities as the legalistic "bad guys". Which may be true to some degree from a certain perspective, but calling it out this baldly and comparing Gretta to Jesus (she's many things, but she's no Jesus) is definitely polarizing. And unnecessarily so, IMHO.

 

[chansen]

I don't get what the big deal about Jesus is. This is a governing body, taking a local leader who is loved by her congregation, and placing her on trial for not believing correctly. Sure, there are elements of the Jesus story there. Christians are always looking to emulate Jesus and take great delight in finding examples of sacrifice to compare to Jesus. Just because they don't like the comparison this time, doesn't mean the Jesus comparison is any more far fetched than it usually is.

 

[Luce NDs]

"Do all things without murmuring and arguing..." Philippians 2:14

I.E. the pagans and heathen should shut up! ... Tertullian and others as patriarchy! Thus the upper crust of Crow Pi don't learn anything from beyond in lo' Eire halls ... AENous, or AENid!

 

[Luce NDs]

This the buried spark ... or the Christ Flame as covered up in the tome ... few understand the Greatest Story Ever Told ... tis a bi gun ...

 

[revjohn]

A letter of solidarity with a minister under review and potentially fired for what she doesn't believe, against the wishes of her congregation, is divisive?

A letter of solidarity would not automatically be divisive.

There is more critique (most of it well off target) than anything resembling support.

It is an attempt to shame the denomination as a whole and the Executive Secretary of General Council in particular. Neither of which have played any role in the process so far save for the Executive Secretary who was doing her job when she responded to the question from Toronto Sub-executive.

Which is what makes it divisive.

You might not like her response. You may not like that the Judicial Review Panel ultimately upheld her response. There is no evidence that her response was malicious or that it targets only one clergy person.

 

[chansen]

There have been multiple letters to newspapers, shaming the denomination for not removing her years ago. Some go so far as to insist on the same treatment for others who think like her, clergy or laity. I don't see people fretting about that denomination shaming.

Yeah, there is hyperbole. From both sides. This is high stakes for some, and they are mad that this is happening because Rev. Vosper came to a reasonable conclusion. The letter is an angry one, but the point of it is, there are more clergy out there who support Rev. Vosper. And there are going to be active ministers who support her as well, who *are* afraid to say so publicly, fearing they will be next. Again, for the crime of coming to a reasonable conclusion.

 

[Luce NDs]

Is reasonable conclusion akin to rational loose ends ... that go on and on ... as the myths must be connected realigned --- by alien re*lig 'onin that is our onus to learn as in comparative theology?

Recall the Iam's left out ... when it is all about de U th ingy! Never eliminate the past ... or ye shall become chaotic ... Ka Oz?

All encompassed by the eternal ... nothing eliminated of denied as a paean may be something to conjure up some humility ... thus less 'r folks ... or Asia Minor residents hated by all real people ... especially jew'cid energies ... eL Cid? ... Charles Baudelaire!

People drunk on power????? What can they know of virtue ...

 

[Waterfall]

There have been multiple letters to newspapers, shaming the denomination for not removing her years ago. Some go so far as to insist on the same treatment for others who think like her, clergy or laity. I don't see people fretting about that denomination shaming.

Yeah, there is hyperbole. From both sides. This is high stakes for some, and they are mad that this is happening because Rev. Vosper came to a reasonable conclusion. The letter is an angry one, but the point of it is, there are more clergy out there who support Rev. Vosper. And there are going to be active ministers who support her as well, who *are* afraid to say so publicly, fearing they will be next. Again, for the crime of coming to a reasonable conclusion.

Some, possibly many, could have "sensed" that their minister had lost faith, despite the "acting out" through their service on Sunday. Their church may have become "dead" in the community with no usefulness other than a shallow Sunday service. So rather than remove the minister, many within that congregation may have chosen to remove themselves and go to another denomination. You may be right, maybe there are many "Grettas" in the pulpits that have corrupted the main stream church as a whole. It might explain some of the decline in membership and the increase in numbers for the evangelicals.

 

[Luce NDs]

Lost faith in the power of energetic pride? In the definition of hubris ... this leads to nemesis ... a more humble state?

In the following state would the Christians then ... not demand on putting down lesser persons?

 

[chansen]

Some, possibly many, could have "sensed" that their minister had lost faith, despite the "acting out" through their service on Sunday. Their church may have become "dead" in the community with no usefulness other than a shallow Sunday service. So rather than remove the minister, many within that congregation may have chosen to remove themselves and go to another denomination. You may be right, maybe there are many "Grettas" in the pulpits that have corrupted the main stream church as a whole. It might explain some of the decline in membership and the increase in numbers for the evangelicals.

So now atheists in pulpits are to blame for declining attendance. Really. Let's all just pause on that thought for a moment.

Young people are leaving faith at an alarming rate, so let's not give them anything they can relate to. Let's try to force them back into a belief they have abandoned. Not with evidence (don't have any), but with more deeply held and enforced beliefs. Let's bombard them with testimonies from people who claim face time with Jesus, because that's credible.

Meanwhile, you've got a minister in your midst who is creating a blueprint for how to do church without the literal beliefs that your own children don't buy, and she has to go. Don't work with her, don't explore options. People are asking questions about her, and the last thing we need are questions about what we believe. Let's show other Christians that we can believe in just as many wildly improbable things as they can. More, if you count the survival of the denomination steering in this direction.

 

[Waterfall]

So now atheists in pulpits are to blame for declining attendance. Really. Let's all just pause on that thought for a moment.

Young people are leaving faith at an alarming rate, so let's not give them anything they can relate to. Let's try to force them back into a belief they have abandoned. Not with evidence (don't have any), but with more deeply held and enforced beliefs. Let's bombard them with testimonies from people who claim face time with Jesus, because that's credible.

Meanwhile, you've got a minister in your midst who is creating a blueprint for how to do church without the literal beliefs that your own children don't buy, and she has to go. Don't work with her, don't explore options. People are asking questions about her, and the last thing we need are questions about what we believe. Let's show other Christians that we can believe in just as many wildly improbable things as they can. More, if you count the survival of the denomination steering in this direction.

You and I are at opposite ends on this issue. I do not believe that an atheist belongs in the pulpit of a Christian church. You do.
I also believe young people, as they get older, will be returning to faith at an alarming rate in the future.

 

[Lastpointe]

Interesting article this week in Toronto about a new church in the Uof T area. C3 i think it was called. Opened three years ago, has over 800 members. All millenials

 

[Pinga]

@chansen , Gretta had lots of options to work within the system to engage with others, to change polity, to share her belief.
In multiple situations, she stood alone. Have you heard of her participation in United Church of canada committees to change polity, to bring forward motions to the GC, to network with other churches explaining her position?

Gretta's method was and is confrontational and about her own dream and beliefs. When she uses the media best, it has been to sell a book, not to bring forward issues of social justice.
Within this denomination, there are lots of opportunities for non-standard , fringe beliefs and works, and to address issues with

She created the environment.

So, enough of your "she is creating a blueprint". No, she isn't. Not even close.

 

[Jaebius]

So now atheists in pulpits are to blame for declining attendance. Really. Let's all just pause on that thought for a moment.

Young people are leaving faith at an alarming rate, so let's not give them anything they can relate to. Let's try to force them back into a belief they have abandoned. Not with evidence (don't have any), but with more deeply held and enforced beliefs. Let's bombard them with testimonies from people who claim face time with Jesus, because that's credible.

Meanwhile, you've got a minister in your midst who is creating a blueprint for how to do church without the literal beliefs that your own children don't buy, and she has to go. Don't work with her, don't explore options. People are asking questions about her, and the last thing we need are questions about what we believe. Let's show other Christians that we can believe in just as many wildly improbable things as they can. More, if you count the survival of the denomination steering in this direction.

Agreed that the UCCanada would be dying with or without Rev. Vosper in the pulpit.