The Lord's Prayer

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paradox3

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Anyone interested in discussing the prayer Jesus taught? I must say I really don't spend a great deal of time praying. Meditation (the walking variety) and reading the Bible sporadically are my usual spiritual practices. And oh yes. Going to church.

Will look and find the biblical reference and be back soon.
 
The Gospels of Matthew and Luke have Jesus teaching slightly different versions of the prayer. It is part of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew and Jesus includes some general instructions on prayer. Pray privately, for example. Know that God understands your needs.

In Luke, Jesus has just been praying Himself and he specifically addresses the disciples. Here is the text:

Luke 11: 1-4
 
Snoopy's Snappy Review: Luke 11: 1-4
Hmmm. How to approach this text? Let's look at the Matthew version.

Matthew 6: 9-13

Snoopy prefers the longer version in Matthew. Will go with it for study, prayer and meditation. (y)
 
I always prefer to include the teachings on prayer that go before the Lord's Prayer in Matthew. The guidance on prayer is, IMHO, more important than the prayer itself.


And I also think that Christianity as an institution lost sight of 5-8. I mean, in what world does "But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you" translate to forced public praying of the Lord's Prayer? That, to me, falls more under the bit about hypocrites praying on street corners in 5. Or maybe the praying of empty phrases as the Gentiles do. Because use of the Lord's Prayer in that repetitious, public way strips out a lot of the meaning.

Really, I see the Lord's Prayer being given (in Matthew) as an example or maybe paragon of what Jesus is teaching in 5-8. Practice prayer, but make it between yourself and God. Don't make a show of it. That's kind of the context in which I see that whole Matthew 6:5-13 passage.
 
As for the prayer itself, I think it is packed with meaning. IIRC, Spong (pretty sure it was him) even wrote a book arguing that it formed a kind of creed with its statements about God. This goes back to my library days, where I saw it on the shelf when it was in for cataloguing, so I may be off on that. So definitely a good prayer and a good focus for meditation, as you suggest.
 
Good point about public repetition of the Lord's Prayer making it rote and meaningless. But it can become quite the issue in congregations which experiment with removing it or reducing its frequency.

Our previous minister used the Jim Cotter version (VU 916) quite often and would say it was beloved by our congregation. I am not sure where she got this idea but it must have come from somewhere.

Eventually I started to find it every bit as meaningless and rote as the original. The same minister also offered other paraphrases of the prayer which were nice to hear. I also like the sung versions.
 
Really, I see the Lord's Prayer being given (in Matthew) as an example
I Totally agree with Mendalla here -----this prayer was given as an example only ----

my view
Saying the Lords Prayer is repetitious is we are told Not to Pray this type of prayer

Like the Catholics prayer their prayer beads ----is a no-no --

And for True Christians today -----this prayer is very iffy -- this prayer was given under the old Covenant of the Law and is finished -----True Christians are not under the Old Covenant ----they are Under the new Covenant of Grace ----all sins are already forgiven ---and Jesus can now protect His Children from Satan ----as he defeated Satan on the Cross --

Why would God answer a prayer that He has already answered by and through His Son and what He accomplished on the Cross ----

When you keep repeating the same prayer over and over ---you just do it by memory and the very meaning is Lost ---your just repeating words over and over with no meaning ----

Pointless and fruitless in my view ---
 
Completely agreeing @unsafe that endlessly repeating the same words becomes meaningless. Also agree that Jesus offered the prayer as an example. Perhaps he didn't even use the exact same words each time he said it. This could explain the variance between the Matthew and Luke versions, no?

All the same, I think liturgy and ritual have their place and sometimes speak to us on a very deep level.
 
Sometimes I pray it in a rote, robotic way. But sometimes I really try to focus on the words. I love to hear it being said by the congregation. It becomes one communal voice, shedding any differences for a moment, to come together before God. When I am leading worship, I back away from the mike, so my voice does not rise above any other.
 
Sometimes I pray it in a rote, robotic way. But sometimes I really try to focus on the words. I love to hear it being said by the congregation. It becomes one communal voice, shedding any differences for a moment, to come together before God. When I am leading worship, I back away from the mike, so my voice does not rise above any other.
I think saying it in church is a different matter. I was talking more about the almost ubiquitous use of it in non-religious public settings (e.g. school) that used to happen in my youth. That seems to have died down a lot now, but there's still some of it. In a Christian church setting, I think it is entirely appropriate as part of the service, though mixing up the version used, or sometimes using a sung version (my old family church sang it at times) might increase people's mindfulness of the prayer and its meaning.
 
I barely remember it being recited in school. I think it was gone by the time I hit high school. Maybe even earlier.
 
Completely agreeing @unsafe that endlessly repeating the same words becomes meaningless. Also agree that Jesus offered the prayer as an example. Perhaps he didn't even use the exact same words each time he said it. This could explain the variance between the Matthew and Luke versions, no?

And here I sort of disagree. Praying the rosary is a pathway into a meditative/trance state, which is often a good place for a mind to rest and listen for the Spirit.

The Jim Cotter prayer from VU is a lovely one, I think. I close my Tuesday night group with it every week, just before I extinguish our candle. Strangely, though, despite saying it weekly for years, I haven't quite got it memorized, where I could trot out the traditional Lord's Prayer without thinking about it, even though I rarely hear it. The rev uses a variation of the prayer once a month, at least, maybe a little more frequently. I like the translation from Aramaic:

O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos/ you create all that moves in light.
Focus your light within us–make it useful: as the rays of a beacon show the way.
Create your reign of unity now–through our fiery hearts and willing hands.
Your one desire then acts with ours, as in all light, so in all forms.
Grant what we need each day in bread and insight:
subsistence for the call of growing life.
Loose the cords of mistakes binding us,
as we release the strands we hold of others’ guilt.
Don’t let us enter forgetfulness
But free us from unripeness
From you is born all ruling will, the power and the life to do,
the song that beautifies all, from age to age it renews.
Truly–power to these statements–
may they be the source from which all my actions grow.
 
Completely agreeing @unsafe that endlessly repeating the same words becomes meaningless.
I don't know. When I fell last week, from the moment it all went wrong until I landed on my hip and slammed my head, I repeated "s**t s**t s**t s**t s**t" at least five times, and other than some bruising, and a slight muscle strain, I came out fine.
 
Interesting point about the rosary @BetteTheRed

It's a private thing Catholics do, right? I only know it includes many Hail Marys and many Our Fathers.
 
It's a way of counting a specific series of repetition of ritual prayers, among them the Lord's Prayer, the Hail Mary, etc. Not always private, because on Sundays in an old rural parish church, you'll see women usually elderly and with covered heads, kneeling in the front pews, praying the Rosary aloud. Not in unison to my memory. My experiences are limited to making sure my RCC grandma and uncle were transported to mass EVERY Sunday no matter where we were. They lived in England, but one or the other or both of them visited us for 4 weeks every second year for decades, and sometimes we took them visiting my godparents in rural Ontario.

Also, Taize services, where the focus is on candles, simple music, repetitive phrases, not always in English.

For a more physical iteration of the same idea from another 'religion', if you're familiar with the specific "set" of Taoist Tai Chi, it comprises 100+ movements that are repetitions and recombinations of maybe a dozen or so movements coupled with specific direction changes designed to contain your movements within a fairly small space.
 
"Let's sing together The Lord's Prayer, 'Our Father.'" is something I say each and every Sunday near the close of our English children's service. It fits nicely in-between another prayer and our learning our memory verse together. We sing The Lord's Prayer complete with actions. Everyone seems to enjoy doing so and to derive value from participating in it
 
I don't know. When I fell last week, from the moment it all went wrong until I landed on my hip and slammed my head, I repeated "s**t s**t s**t s**t s**t" at least five times, and other than some bruising, and a slight muscle strain, I came out fine.
Truthfully, I didn't even swear. "s**t s**t s**t s**t s**t" is my common mantra when falling under normal circumstances. Those who saw it from the chair were struck by how violent the fall was, and simultaneously how I was laughing while I was falling.

I remember thinking how ironic it was that I was skiing well, being judged by two facilitators in a course run by Alpine Canada for new Development Level coaches, and here I am in the air, on my back, about to have an epic fall. That's why I was laughing. And I was skiing so damn well before the fall.
 
Praying the rosary is a pathway into a meditative/trance state,
Praying the Rosary is Glorifying Mary not Jesus and that goes against what the Scripture Says ----we are to Glorify God Not Mary ----So praying the Rosary is Heresy -----
a mind to rest and listen for the Spirit.
I say -----the only Spirit the Mind rests on would be that of Satan not the Holy Spirit ---

What does the Bible say about praying the Rosary?​


NeverThirsty
https://www.neverthirsty.org › Bible Q&As

Praying the Rosary is a deceptive practice that cannot be found in the Bible. It is heretical.
 
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