The Church Vs. The State Civil Disobedience

[Ritafee]

8 weeks is a long time if you are holding your breath.

It isn't a long-time if you forgo bail and get credit for time served should you not win an acquittal.

Typical time served equation is two days reduction for every day of confinement waiting for trial.

So an eight week stay results, ordinarily in a 16 week sentence reduction.

It may not come to that ...

EDMONTON: The Justice Centre has obtained a court date of Thursday, March 4 at 1:00PM at 1:00pm, for the appeal of the bail conditions placed on Pastor James Coates. Pastor Coates, of Grace Life Church, was arrested and taken into custody at the Edmonton Remand Centre, where he remains today after he refused to sign a bail condition which would have forced him to not attend or hold church services as normal.

The Justice Centre has filed an appeal in the Alberta Court of Queen’s Bench, which will determine whether Pastor Coates can be released from jail prior to a trial date set for May 3-5, 2021, in Alberta Provincial Court in Stony Plain. Erin Coates, wife of the jailed pastor, has sworn an affidavit setting out the negative impact of her husband’s imprisonment on herself, her children, and members of the community.

 

[Ritafee]

And it can't have escaped anyone that it is "medical professionals" advocating these preventive measures.

It has not escaped my attention that many many medical professionals that disagree with the destructive measures are not allowed to participate in the discussion.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Anecdotally, I don't know a single doctor, nurse, nurse-practitioner who disagrees with public health guidelines.

I do know that some of them wish them a bit relaxed in palliative cases. And they do. I got as much time as I needed with my old guy, in full PPE. I was authorized for one hour.

 

[Ritafee]

the needs of the many will trump the needs of a few.

The needs of the few are trumping the needs of the many with these restrictions. You can model and staticize as much as you want ... the reality remains that with this 'virus' the measures being take are not even protecting those most vulnerable.

 

[Ritafee]

Anecdotally, I don't know a single doctor, nurse, nurse-practitioner who disagrees with public health guidelines.

Ancedotally, I know many.

 

[Redbaron]

Ancedotally, I know many.

Care to provide a list?

 

[Ritafee]

I'm sure Bonnie Henry has much more data than that to present and articulate.

But apparently that was not the case in court today. In her defense she had no documents prepared ... claiming there was not enough time. Its Seems a bit ludicrous to force an entire province full of churches into lockdown and not be prepared with any evidence in a court of law to defend why you’ve forced an entire province full of churches into lockdown .. IMO.

 

[Ritafee]

Care to provide a list?

Not to anyone such as yourself.

 

[Redbaron]

As I suspected. Nothing.

 

[Northwind]

As I suspected. Nothing.

You expected an answer? (yeah, I'm lurking)

 

[Waterfall]

Today I would have liked to go to a service in a chapel for a dearly recently departed but the restrictions will not accommodate that. 10 people are allowed ... those 10 are in agreement with the restrictions so they are carrying on with the dearly deceased wishes to the best of their ability.

So you support the pastor ignoring the law but you won't do the same yourself and go to the chapel service for your friend in defiance? You seem to recognize what the pastor you support does not.

 

[revjohn]

So in essence the Church priviledged treatment allows them to discriminate.

Within limits it does. Public Health restrictions don't threaten that in the least.

I think the reason the churches are not opening for the most part is not because they are afraid of the virus but because they are afraid of losing their tax exempt status.

Considering that it is the majority of Churches not opening that might not be an accurate read.

Fighting public health directives should not threaten charitable standing providing churches continue to engage in the activities that win them charitable status.

For every service, cancelled congregations take a financial hit simply because some supporters only contribute to costs when they actually attend. It is costly for congregations to close. Particularly those congregations which do not make fiscal support a requisite component to membership. George Street lost 32 weeks to Public Health and weather-related closures. This resulted in a 30% drop in our congregational giving for the year. We are also a very popular venue for local musicians to offer concerts from, particularly in December which destroyed our rental income which is significant. We said no to these rentals simply because they thought our Pandemic protocols too onerous. We didn't ease up for revenue's sake so the charitable deductions for no income don't actually pay.

And while we forfeited revenue we maintained budgeted expenses, particularly those related to the Jimmy Pratt Memorial Centre which is the arm of our congregation that prepares meals twice a week for at-need and at-risk members of the wider community. While we could not offer in building dining we did pivot to make sure that these meals were delivered. With Pandemic restrictions over the last year, we have only had to halt this ministry for five weeks and because volunteers were in self-isolation after close contact with a confirmed case of Covid-19. Fortunately, none of our volunteers was actually infected. The same cannot be said for all close contacts.

 

[revjohn]

I am being prevented from attending a funeral this very day.

I empathize, we have had several postponed due to our recent back to square 1 restrictions. Of course, prior to our youth-fuelled explosive outbreak, our largest cluster of cases was related to one infected individual attending multiple viewings at a local funeral home.

At present we are limited to 5 at any public gathering so we are having graveside services (not great fun in NL between January and April). Because we also have a large rate of ex-pats who desire to come home for nanny or poppa's good-bye but can't realistically self-isolate for 14 days prior. I imagine when our province's travel restrictions are lifted there will be a busy funeral season.

Our congregation has fortunately not had a lot of deaths during times of pandemic restrictions.

 

[revjohn]

It may not come to that ...

EDMONTON: The Justice Centre has obtained a court date of Thursday, March 4 at 1:00PM at 1:00pm, for the appeal of the bail conditions placed on Pastor James Coates. Pastor Coates, of Grace Life Church, was arrested and taken into custody at the Edmonton Remand Centre, where he remains today after he refused to sign a bail condition which would have forced him to not attend or hold church services as normal.

The Justice Centre has filed an appeal in the Alberta Court of Queen’s Bench, which will determine whether Pastor Coates can be released from jail prior to a trial date set for May 3-5, 2021, in Alberta Provincial Court in Stony Plain. Erin Coates, wife of the jailed pastor, has sworn an affidavit setting out the negative impact of her husband’s imprisonment on herself, her children, and members of the community.

And if the appeal is won the Pastor will be released and not spend 8 weeks in jail pre-trial.

Every day he does spend in jail pre-trial will be counted as time-served.

Being denied bail for refusing to abide by bail conditions is pretty routine. Can't think of any instance where a judge named bail conditions the defendant said "not a chance" and the judge said, "okay, you're free to go."

 

[Luce NDs]

And if the appeal is won the Pastor will be released and not spend 8 weeks in jail pre-trial.

Every day he does spend in jail pre-trial will be counted as time-served.

Being denied bail for refusing to abide by bail conditions is pretty routine. Can't think of any instance where a judge named bail conditions the defendant said "not a chance" and the judge said, "okay, you're free to go."

Does contemptuous fall in with counter bearing forces? It may be dark and mysterious to the bearer thus conforming to the unknown psyche ... a situation of confined naivete regarding balance in wants and foregone thoughts!

I see a blind blonde kicking uselessly against it. What? The Ide being a vacant conception ...

How do mortals deal with cognizance of nothing being impossible on the physical side? Something will fill the GAP ...

After that everything tightens up ... even the economy ... because the commonwealth's power have it all in hand ... observations missed as foggy in the minds of those told not to observe the bad and ugly ... nor the good as then they'd want some ...

Tis a beautiful go round ... Marah ... in discursion all over dah place ... in patches! What can I say ...

 

[revjohn]

Does contemptuous fall in with counter bearing forces? It may be dark and mysterious to the bearer thus conforming to the unknown psyche ... a situation of confined naivete regarding balance in wants and foregone thoughts!

Not sure it is automatic. Certain powers and authorities have the prerogative to define contempt. Other powers and authorities don't.

I don't think the Pastor qualifies as contemptuous. Public Health Measures not having the same authority or power as does a Magistrate.

Doesn't mean that being on the wrong side of one is better than the other.

How do mortals deal with cognizance of nothing being impossible on the physical side?

Individuals want what they want and it ever was thus.

 

[Luce NDs]

Not sure it is automatic. Certain powers and authorities have the prerogative to define contempt. Other powers and authorities don't.

I don't think the Pastor qualifies as contemptuous. Public Health Measures not having the same authority or power as does a Magistrate.

Doesn't mean that being on the wrong side of one is better than the other.



Individuals want what they want and it ever was thus.

Yes, wants always outweigh intelligent needs resolution ... thus some characters say we are our worst enemy! Then many will deny that as well ...

 

[Ritafee]

but you won't do the same yourself and go to the chapel service for your friend in defiance?

You mistake me for one that does things to be defiant. This is my Aunt through marriage. She was in agreement with the rules as implemented. as is her more immediate family. It would be no kindness for me to impose myself 'defiantly'. Why I support the Pastor is that I support all who are trying to get the restrictions lifted ... if it has to be done in a 'courtly' manner ... so let it be done.

 

[Ritafee]

While we could not offer in building dining we did pivot to make sure that these meals were delivered. With Pandemic restrictions over the last year, we have only had to halt this ministry for five weeks and because volunteers were in self-isolation after close contact with a confirmed case of Covid-19. Fortunately, none of our volunteers was actually infected

 

[Ritafee]

So you support the pastor ignoring the law

It is not the law. You seem to have more respect for Rev John on these matters than you do for myself. Looking through his posts ...

Public Health Measures not having the same authority or power as does a Magistrate.