Snoopy's Lenten Reflections

Welcome to Wondercafe2!

A community where we discuss, share, and have some fun together. Join today and become a part of it!

Register Log in
paradox3 said:
Jesus might have been a Pharisee
Click to expand...

paradox3 said:
Or an Essene
Click to expand...
And there are things in his teachings and actions to support both, though it is equally (and probably more) likely that he was influenced by both of their teachings moreso than actually being one of either sect. OTOH, the theory that John the Baptist was an Essene holds up pretty well and he could be the source of the Essene influences on Jesus.

(I shouldn't need to say this, but I am talking about Jesus as an historical Jewish teacher and prophet, not the mythological Christ, here.)
 
paradox3 said:
Son of God
Jewish Mystic
Social reformer
Son of Man
Messiah
Christ
Suffering Servant
Healer
Storyteller
Apocalyptic preacher
Teacher
Charismatic leader
Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world
Shepherd
Peacemaker
Sword bringer

Yes, I think everything on this list can be right. And more.
Click to expand...
Some with different interpretations I would suggest?
I often wonder if we do Jesus a disservice by our lack of understandings .....or is it better to stay and accept what we've learned from the beginning within many churches
But then I think of Jesus correcting something learned by the scribes in Mark 12:35-37 or Mark 12:34.
Who corrects us now because every church can be saying something different about what the words in the Bible are saying?
 
Waterfall said:
Some with different interpretations I would suggest?
Click to expand...
Always. How could it be otherwise?

Waterfall said:
But then I think of Jesus correcting something learned by the scribes in Mark 12:35-37 or Mark 12:34.
Click to expand...
Jesus was pretty big on correcting the scribes & Pharisees and he often rebuked his own disciples.

In Mark 12:34, he commends one of the experts in the law for "answering thoughtfully".

Waterfall said:
Who corrects us now because every church can be saying something different about what the words in the Bible are saying?
Click to expand...
Is there always one single correct answer? Even the Bible offers different versions/ interpretations of the same event.

Genesis gives us two takes on the creation story. The synoptic gospels provide three accounts of the Transfiguration on the mountaintop. Planning to look at them soon.
 
paradox3 said:
The historical Jesus and the mythological Christ are so intertwined, how do we differentiate?
Click to expand...
From AI ----

AI



The primary difference is that the historical Jesus is a figure almost universally accepted by scholars to have lived, with accounts based on alleged eyewitness testimony, while the "mythological Christ" is a theory that Jesus was a fabricated, composite character based on ancient, pre-existing pagan deities or allegorical fiction
.
Wikipedia +3
Historical Jesus (The Human/Divine Teacher)

Historicity: Supported by the vast majority of historians and scholars who conclude a Jewish man named Jesus of Nazareth lived and was crucified.

Sources: Accounts in the Gospels were written within decades of his life by people who claimed to be or to know firsthand witnesses.

Context: His life is grounded in a specific time (first-century Roman Judea) and place.

Characteristics: He taught a message of love, service, and a kingdom of God, distinguishing himself from mythical heroes or power-focused deities.
Wikipedia +5

Mythological Christ (The "Christ Myth" Theory)

Origins: Proponents argue that early Christians adapted stories from pagan myths (such as Osiris, Mithras, or Dionysus) to create a symbolic savior figure, rather than a real person.

Purpose: According to this theory, the Gospels are allegorical or fictional, designed to present a "deity who was concretized" to meet religious, psychological, or theological needs.

Comparison to Deities: Critics of the theory note that most mythological figures mentioned (like Osiris or Krishna) lacked historical evidence, and their stories were often modified after the time of Jesus to resemble him, not the other way around.
Wikipedia +4

Key Distinctions

Real vs. Symbolic: The Historical Jesus was a real person whose life inspired faith;
the Mythological Christ is a symbolic archetype whose story preceded the belief.

Consistency: The Gospel accounts, despite variations, maintain a consistent narrative of Jesus's life, whereas myths often have wildly diverging, inconsistent narratives.

The historical impact of Jesus on history, law, and culture is considered vastly different from that of mythological figures, which were typically part of localized, ancient mystery cults
 
Pretty much agreeing with AI here as posted by @unsafe

I see no reason to question the existence of Jesus of Nazareth. But I believe the historical Jesus has been mythologized over the past two millennia (beginning with the Gospels, if not with Paul).
 
Some Scholars compare John the Baptise to being associated with the Essene's group

Interesting read here ----from Got Questions on the Essenes


www.gotquestions.org

Who were the Essenes? Was John the Baptist an Essene? | GotQuestions.org

Who were the Essenes in Jesus’ day? Was John the Baptist an Essene? Who are the Essenes today?
www.gotquestions.org


The Essenes were a Jewish mystical sect somewhat resembling the Pharisees. They lived lives of ritual purity and separation. They originated about 100 B.C., and disappeared from history after the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The Essenes are not directly mentioned in Scripture, although some believe they may be referred to in Matthew 19:11, 12 and in Colossians 2:8, 18, and 23. Interest in the Essenes was renewed with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were likely recorded and stored by the Essenes.

It has been popular among some scholars to claim that John the Baptist was an Essene. There are some similarities between John and the Essenes: 1. John was in the desert (Luke 1:80). The Essenes were in the desert. 2. Both John and the Essenes used Isaiah 40:3 to describe themselves as the voice in the wilderness. 3. The baptism (or washing) practiced by John and the Essenes required a change of heart. At the same time, there are significant differences between John the Baptist and the Essenes: 1. The Essenes hid themselves away from society in the wilderness. John was a very public figure. 2. John had a much stricter diet (Luke 7:33) than did the Essenes. 3. John preached Jesus as the Messiah. The Essenes did not recognize Jesus as Messiah, but they thought that the Teacher of Righteousness would himself be an Essene. 4. There was a strong organization among the Essenes that was missing among John the Baptist’s disciples. So, was John the Baptist an Essene? While it is possible, it cannot be explicitly proven either biblically or historically.

The Essenes as a sect of Judaism do not exist today. However, there are fringe groups that call themselves Essenes. One such group is the Essene Church of Christ, which declares itself to be “the authorized custodians and chief disseminators of the true teachings of Lord Christ and Lady Christ.” They share similarities with all cults and false religions: their “holy book” is something other than the Bible; they rely heavily on mysticism and occult revelation; they believe they and they alone possess truth; they deny the Trinity; and they deny biblical doctrines including original sin, heaven, hell, and salvation through Christ. As purveyors of false doctrine, modern "Essenes" are to be avoided.
 
Wow, I had no idea there was a present day Essene Church of Christ.

It sounds like a fringe group but who knows whether or not it meets the definition of a cult?

Cults are somewhat in the eye of the beholder. Some atheists believe all religions are cults. Many of us believe that AA and related Anonymous groups have many (not all) of the features of a cult.

My experience with so called Progressive Christianity fits in here, too. A particular congregation had some (not all) of the features of a cult. It certainly ticked the charismatic and controlling leader box.

My perception only, I hasten to add. Many disagreed with me.
 
Day 4 of Snoopy's Lenten study.

Thanks to those of you who are posting on this thread. That was a good discussion we had based on the Transfiguration story.

But I have lost interest in comparing the three different accounts in the synoptic gospels. Maybe another time.

Last night I was looking up some basic facts about the season of Lent. Traditionally the three pillars of Lent are prayer, fasting and almsgiving. Who knew? We focus so much on the "giving up" aspect of the season. It is the only thing I have ever heard Catholics talk about.

Lent is observed in Eastern and Western churches but not all denominations participate. Baptists, I read, reject the idea of Lent because it is not biblical. Who knew?

In Lent we commemorate the 40 days Jesus spent in the wilderness. This was news to me because the number 40 appears other places in the Bible. The only thing I knew about the length of time is that it was designed to be a longer season than Advent.

In the West, Lent starts on Ash Wednesday. In Eastern churches, it begins two days earlier on Clean Monday. Who knew?

There are 46 days from Ash Wednesday to Easter Sunday. I have always understood Sundays are not included because we still celebrate the resurrection on Sundays. In Catholic terms, Sunday is a feast day. And one does not fast.on a feast day.

So the math works out (40 days in total) unless you consider that Lent ends on Maundy Thursday. Apparently some people think it ends on either Maundy Thursday or Good Friday to give way for the Easter vigil. Who knew? I don't get it mathematically speaking.

Any general thoughts about Lent?

I might pick up on the temptation in the wilderness story next. Or wait and see what the reading will be in church tomorrow. Thanks again for following along.
 
Lent is seen as coming from the Latin word --quadragesima ---which means Forthieth

www.etymonline.com

Etymonline - Online Etymology Dictionary

The online etymology dictionary (etymonline) is the internet's go-to source for quick and reliable accounts of the origin and history of English words, phrases, and idioms.
www.etymonline.com www.etymonline.com

"Lent," c. 1600, from Medieval Latin quadragesima (dies) "the fortieth (day)," altered diminutive of Latin quadrigesimus "fortieth," from quadriginta "forty," related to quattuor "four" (from PIE root *kwetwer- "four"). So called because it lasts forty days.



this is what AI says

In Christianity, the Latin term for Lent is Quadragesima, which translates to "fortieth" or "forty days".

This term signifies the solemn, 40-day liturgical period of fasting, prayer, and penance leading up to Easter, directly referencing the 40 days Jesus spent fasting in the desert.
Wikipedia +4

Key details regarding the Latin roots and meaning:

Significance: It reflects the 40 days of temptation, the 40 years of Israel's wilderness wanderings, and the 40 days of rain in Noah's flood, representing a period of trial and preparation.

Latin Tradition: The Latin Quadragesima is used to describe the "Great Fast".
In contrast, the English word "Lent" derives from the Old English lencten, which means "Spring Season".

Duration: The 40 days are observed from Ash Wednesday to Holy Thursday (excluding Sundays), representing a time of spiritual renewal and preparation for the Easter celebration.


I say ---so we have Jesus 40 days in the Wilderness fasting and being Tempted by Satan --

-----so what is this period of Lent in our world today really meant for ??????
and Who is it really meant for ??????

the Word Lent does not itself appear in the Scripture -----so I personally think the root for this comes from the Old Testament and what the Jews did -----using ashes as a symbolic meaning for mourning and repentance before God -----

And we have adopted this into our world today ------Jesus never told anyone to put ashes on their forehead ---and to fast or pray ----before His Death and Resurrection ----this is a Religious Tradition that we have adopted ------

AI -----say this

It is a 40-day, church-tradition season of fasting and prayer, developing in the early church to mirror biblical themes of repentance, preparation, and spiritual discipline

I say ---
Some Religions believe that observing Lent brings them closer to God ----or they will be Blessed by observing Lent -----so motive drives some people to observe Lent -----not for their Agape for Jesus ---they are doing it for their own purpose ------


For Believers they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit --(God) in them and you can't get any closer to God than that ------so observing Lent won't bring you closer to God ------

Believers should be praying every day not just at Lent -----and Believers are to acknowledge their sin as soon as they commit it ----not wait till lent -----

People like to boast about what they gave up for lent -----showing their puffed up ego

God already Agapes ALL His Creation ----you can't get God to love you more by observing lent ---

Lent should be a time for all to Reflect on what Jesus taught us when He was in the wilderness fasting and being Tempted by Satan -------and what He endured before He went to the Cross and what He endured on the Cross and His Resurrection after the Cross ----defeating the 2nd death for us and eliminating the Curse and bringing back the Blessing for all who receive HIM -----

I say
Lent is not about the Practice we have made it into ---it is about what actually points us toward observing it -----

Observing Lent is a Reflective Heart issue -- in my opinion ------

Is your Heart with Jesus or Not -----


I say -----Just noticing this from above ====

Duration: The 40 days are observed from Ash Wednesday to Holy Thursday (excluding Sundays), representing a time of spiritual renewal

So Questions ----?
How can one get Spiritually renewed by observing Lent ---if they don't believe in what is written in the Scriptures ------???----

What lessons did we learn from Jesus being tested by Satan in the Wilderness ?
 
Lent has parallels in both Judaism and Islam. Not saying the 3 observances are identical by any means.

I wonder if other world faiths have similar days or seasons?
 
According to this Buddhism does

AI

Yes, Theravada Buddhism observes a three-month "Buddhist Lent" known as Vassa or the Rains Retreat, which typically runs from July to October (coinciding with the rainy season). Monastics stay in one place to meditate and study, while laypeople may abstain from alcohol, meat, or smoking.
Wikipedia +3
Key aspects of this period include:
  • Purpose: It originated as a way to prevent monks from traveling and damaging crops or harming insects during the rainy season.
  • Duration: Lasts for three months, starting the day after Asalha Puja (usually in July) and ending with Pavarana (often in October).
  • Observances: Known as Khao Phansa (start) and Ok Phansa (end) in Thailand, it involves merit-making, candle festivals, and increased spiritual focus.
  • Practices: While monks often engage in intensive meditation, lay Buddhists may take vows to reduce negative behaviors and focus on virtues.
    Wikipedia +4
Although sometimes called "Buddhist Lent," it is technically a retreat period rather than a period of fasting or penance like the Christian tradition
 
Hinduism

AI


Hinduism does not celebrate "Lent" as a specific Christian tradition, but it has several 40-day, or similar, fasting and introspection periods that serve a similar purpose of spiritual purification and self-discipline. These include the 40-day Mandal Kal and various fasting periods associated with festivals like Navratri or the month of Shraan.
YouTube +4
Key aspects of Hindu fasting periods:
  • Purpose: These times are used for intense spiritual practice, self-discipline, and focusing on the divine.
  • Duration: While not universally 40 days, periods like Mandal Kal span 40 days, often involving the chanting of the Hanuman Chalisa.
  • Dietary Restrictions: Fasting may involve avoiding specific foods (like grains or meat), eating only one meal a day, or restricting food intake for specific days (e.g., Ekadashi).
  • Focus: Similar to the reflection in Lent, these periods emphasize inner transformation.
While Lent is a specific 40-day period before Easter, Hindu periods of fasting and prayer are often tied to lunar calendars and specific deities
 
What about Satanism

AI
Satanism (such as the Church of Satan) does not observe Lent. In fact, they officially view the Lenten/Mardi Gras season as a time to celebrate indulgence rather than self-denial.
Here are the key details regarding the Satanic view on Lent:
  • Mercredi Gras (Fat Wednesday): The Church of Satan advocates for turning the start of the Lenten season into a celebration of the self, encouraging members to "eat your favorite foods, drink your favorite drinks, [and] enjoy your favorite indulgences".
  • Rejection of Penance: The concept of Lent—fasting, sacrifice, and penance—is antithetical to Satanic philosophy, which promotes a "guilt-free carnal existence" and rejects the idea of paying penance for sins.
  • Symbolic Inversion: Rather than observing a 40-day fast, the Church of Satan encourages using the time to celebrate the "Self that needs no permission to sin and scoffs at the idea of paying penance for it".
While some individuals might treat it differently, there is no,, fasting, or Lenten practice within the organized, modern Satanic community.
 
Thanks for your research @unsafe.

Interesting that the number 40 also shows up in Hinduism.

One theory about the religious significance of 40 is that it aligns with the weeks of human gestation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top