Snoopy on the Psalms

[Mendalla]

"Love your neighbour as yourself" is found in the Hebrew Scriptures, Leviticus 19:18.

Here is the full quote for clarity:

You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against any of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

I think the "any of your people" suggests that this sees the "neighbor" as other Hebrews, not invaders or potential rival kingdoms. So it is not equivalent, as I read it, to Matthew 5:44, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." There may be Judaic antecedents for that teaching of Jesus, but this isn't it.

The people of Israel in David's time still, I think, saw God in traditional Bronze/Iron Age terms as a protector and overlord willing to help them kick ass when needed.

 

[Waterfall]

Here is the full quote for clarity:

I think the "any of your people" suggests that this sees the "neighbor" as other Hebrews, not invaders or potential rival kingdoms. So it is not equivalent, as I read it, to Matthew 5:44, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." There may be Judaic antecedents for that teaching of Jesus, but this isn't it.

The people of Israel in David's time still, I think, saw God in traditional Bronze/Iron Age terms as a protector and overlord willing to help them kick ass when needed.

Yeah it appears Jesus upped the ante on his Dad.

 

[paradox3]

Yeah it appears Jesus upped the ante on his Dad.

Agree that Jesus expanded the definition of neighbor.

 

[Waterfall]

Agree that Jesus expanded the definition of neighbor.

Or it was always like that and others wrote it down differently....most times the hardest to do version is more accurate.

 

[paradox3]

It seems most likely (to me) that the Leviticus statement applied only to the people of Israel. It is part of the Torah which was never intended to be universal.

Jesus was asked to explain "who is my neighbor?" and he told the parable of the good Samaritan. The Samaritan in the story took action when he saw the man abandoned at the side of the road after being attacked by robbers.

Of particular significance is the fact that religious differences didn't matter. By the time of Jesus, Samaritans and Jews were different peoples although they had common roots

 

[BetteTheRed]

Here is the full quote for clarity:

I think the "any of your people" suggests that this sees the "neighbor" as other Hebrews, not invaders or potential rival kingdoms. So it is not equivalent, as I read it, to Matthew 5:44, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." There may be Judaic antecedents for that teaching of Jesus, but this isn't it.

The people of Israel in David's time still, I think, saw God in traditional Bronze/Iron Age terms as a protector and overlord willing to help them kick ass when needed.

Agreed that is how the text reads. However, when you realize that Rabbi Hillel and Jesus made the statement "Love God, love neighbour as self" at approximately the same time, then it's clear that Judaism had evolved beyond these "traditional terms" by Jesus' era.

 

[paradox3]

We are getting ahead of ourselves here talking about Jesus and Hillel. Judaism underwent many changes in the Second temple period.

What did the psalmist believe about dealing with enemies? I think he must have had the tribal view that his enemies would be God's enemies.

Anyone remember the Bob Dylan song, With God on Our Side?

 

[Mendalla]

However, when you realize that Rabbi Hillel and Jesus made the statement "Love God, love neighbour as self" at approximately the same time, then it's clear that Judaism had evolved beyond these "traditional terms" by Jesus' era.

Right, but as P3 says,

We are getting ahead of ourselves here talking about Jesus and Hillel. Judaism underwent many changes in the Second temple period.

The Psalms and Leviticus date to a much earlier period so Hillel's teaching is irrelevant to what the psalmist believes or might have read out of the Law given in Leviticus. It is fairly clear from various texts in the Old Testament that the Hebrews of that era held a fairly tribal view of God until at least the exile. That is, that God is their Lord and Protector and will happily lead them into battle against their enemies, including the commission of massacres and even genocides.

 

[BetteTheRed]

I think he must have had the tribal view that his enemies would be God's enemies.

As we do today. Godde is on both sides of every sport competition ever devised.

 

[paradox3]

As we do today. Godde is on both sides of every sport competition ever devised.

The same could be said about both sides in present day wars.

 

[Waterfall]

I think wars were called Holy Wars when they involved religion and the Christians came up with the "Just War".
All sorts of rules for both but of course sometimes "God" justifies some changes.

1763 wars have been recorded in human history but of those only 123 were religious in nature, according to " The Encyclopedia of Wars".

 

[paradox3]

Psalm 8

This Psalm opens and closes with the same verse, using a poetic style known as "inclusio". O Lord, our Lord, how magnificent is your reputation throughout the earth! (v. 1, 9)

It is a song of praise to the Creator.
There are many echoes of the creation story in Genesis. And only one mention of the vindictive enemy!

Humankind has been made a little less than the angels and appointed to rule over creation. The psalmist marvels that God notices and pays attention to the human race.

It is a beautiful Psalm (my favorite so far).

 

[paradox3]

Here's an interesting bit of trivia.

Buzz Aldrin cited two verses of Psalm 8 while he was returning from the moon in 1969. In addition to being an astronaut, he was an elder in his Presbyterian congregation.

On the moon, he had celebrated communion and quoted from John's Gospel. Neil Armstrong, another astronaut, looked on but did not participate.

 

[Mendalla]

Buzz Aldrin cited two verses of Psalm 8 while he was returning from the moon in 1969. In addition to being an astronaut, he was an elder in his Presbyterian congregation.

On the moon, he had celebrated communion and quoted from John's Gospel. Neil Armstrong, another astronaut, looked on but did not participate.

I knew the story but had forgotten which psalm he quoted.

I love the psalms like this one. They are beautiful, if sometimes a bit overwrought, hymns of praise. In some ways, they resonate more for me than the "save me from mine enemies and slaughter those who persecute me" variety. The celebration of God as a fundamental creative, rather than vengeful and destructive, force is much more positive and enlightening. I could use them in a UU service as easily as a Jewish or Christian one.

When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars that you have established;
4 what are humans that you are mindful of them,
mortals[a] that you care for them?

Is a powerful part to my eye. It really asks the question of "Why do we matter?", which is one of the fundamental questions of both religion and philosophy.

 

[Waterfall]

I agree with @Mendalla here, and I would add that creation Also continues to create and maintain the earth and the heavens in some seemingly destructive ways to us humans. (Volcanos, floods, wildfires) We should be thankful for this also and be diligent that we reconsider putting ourselves in harms way.
Creation is amazing and ongoing!
In this day and age I pray we respect what was created for all.

 

[Mendalla]

Tuomas Holopainen, the Finnish composer and songwriter of the band Nightwish, has been exploring ideas about nature and our relationship to the rest of existence on recent albums. I would love to see what he might do with a psalm like this but he's an atheist as I understand it, so not likely to happen. And some grumpy sorts might frown at people headbanging to a psalm.

 

[Mystic]

Buzz Aldrin cited two verses of Psalm 8 while he was returning from the moon in 1969. In addition to being an astronaut, he was an elder in his Presbyterian congregation.

On the moon, he had celebrated communion and quoted from John's Gospel. Neil Armstrong, another astronaut, looked on but did not participate.

During our tour of Israel, we entered Caiaphas' palace, where Jesus was initially interrogated, and went downstairs where the dungeon once held Jesus. Outside the palace gate lay part of the dirt trail that once led to the Garden of Gethsemane, where we had just visited and had a Communion service. This trail is now interrupted by a busy highway.

Our Israeli guide told us that when Neil Armstrong visited this palace, he exclaimed, "Being here is the most awesome experience of my life!"
I thought to myself, "Wow, Neil! More awesome than your exclamation on the moon, "That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind?"

 

[Mendalla]

Our Israeli guide told us that when Neil Armstrong visited this palace, he exclaimed, "Being here is the most awesome experience of my life!"

He was a deist, not an atheist, so that's not entirely out of character for both stories (him not participating in Buzz's service and him being awed by being in Gethsemane) to be true. I think I would be awed at it, too, to be honest. Sadly, my planned tour of the holy land this year got scuttled by Hamas. We were just planning it when Oct. 7 happened.

My favourite Armstrong story (at risk of going further off track but hey, he started it ) is this one (quoted from Wiki):

While working on his farm in November 1978, Armstrong jumped off the back of his grain truck and caught his wedding ring in its wheel, tearing the tip off his left ring finger. He collected the severed tip, packed it in ice, and had surgeons reattach it at a nearby hospital in Louisville, Kentucky.[

I was in grade 8 that year and wood/machine shop (industrial arts I think they called it) was a required class for boys. My shop teacher, good old Mr. Martin, used that news story as an illustration of the importance of not wearing jewellry while working in the shop. Thus it has stuck with me.

Back to Psalm 8 how, I think.

 

[paradox3]

There is a spiritual/ emotional phenomenon that many space travelers experience called the "overview" effect. It can be described as a sense of profound awe. From space, the earth is seen as an interconnected unit.

Awareness of the earth's fragility and sadness about this is experienced by some. From space, our atmosphere appears to be a thin line in a vastness most of us can only imagine.

I haven't read anything indicating Aldrin or Armstrong experienced the phenomenon although maybe they did. The third astronaut, Michael Collins, has talked about it. He remained in orbit around the moon while the other two explored its surface.

Could be they were so busy collecting rocks and taking photographs they didn't have as much time to gaze back at the earth. The overview effect seems to be triggered by contemplating the earth from an immense distance in space.

So interesting! I first heard about this in a talk at the Ontario Science Center. Who knew I would end up connecting the overview effect to Psalm 8?

 

[Mystic]

Well, we are discussing the experience of awe. So one last offtopic observation. When tourists are visiting the Christian holy sites of Israel or Greece, I tell them that in both countries the most awesome site for me was the one I would never have guessed. In Greece, it started atop a 4-story ancient Roman aqueduct near Turkey from which we viewed the most beautiful harbor town in Greece, called Neapolis in Paul's day. We saw the small islands mentioned in Acts just off the coast and, more importantly, the Via Egnatia down below, the trail Paul and his entourage would have walked to get to Philippi. I asked our tour guide if we could go down and walk part of that trail. She reluctantly agreed. When we walked about 200 yards over the same stones that Paul traversed, I was overcome with awe, knowing the missionary travails Paul would experience at Philippi just ahead and that he would baptize his first European convert, Lydia, just down the trail at the lovely rapids of the Gangites River, a place we visited to celebrate Lydia's conversion. The trail was lined with olive and almond trees, Paul's equivalent of McDonald's? It felt like I was walking with the ghosts of Paul and Barnabas. That was my unexpected highlight in Greece.


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