Observer Article: "Defunct WonderCafe site is reborn"

[Pinga]

I do not see the United Church of Canada social media people as potential allies. They have always been cold, non-communicative, and unrepentant for any mistake they've made. I've seen no evidence that they are part of any solution. We've been responsible for our own solutions.

This may be the best example of you reap what you sow.

I have been able to do collaborative work despite some of the challenges faced regarding trust. I had hopes that we could built on that and provide ways to open up the site to offer the subgroups of such items as Rock The Bible or encourage UC.

With each negative post in the public forums' threads by a member of the council, any dreams of such co-operation are dashed.

 

[Northwind]

Do we really need to have the UCCan involved? What purpose would that serve? They didn't show any interest when WC ended.

 

[Pinga]

In fact, Northwind, the social media group was interested in helping the new wondercafe2 form and move over. As you know there is polity and liability concerns re the wider General Council office and areas of he court. You were not party to all the conversations that did occur during that time. Contrary to the impression being given by Chansen, we were able to get support.

Secondly, what does the United Church of Canada,, and any other denominational feeds bring to us, is new blood and links to their sites.

We don't have a marketing budget. The area marked as restricted forums were designed to bring that kind of paricipations in. Mendalla for example was going to see about Unitarian engagement.

 

[Northwind]

So, you are pursuing this with chansen because you want the UCCan to be involved and he messed it up? Is that what you are saying. If that is the case, giving a brief explanation might have helped make this argument make more sense to those of us who are not party to the full workings.

 

[chansen]

Any time we want to serve as a vehicle for discussion about a group or programme within the UCCan, what's stopping us? Why do we need the social media group on board?

The support we get from the UCCan is a the occasional link. We can do that ourselves on the Facebook group.

 

[Pinga]

No, that is not why I am disagreeing with his attacks on social media team and his negative communciations regarding the programs.

The impact to our future with this site is a frustratation, but it is not my major concern.

 

[Pinga]

If you hink,

Any time we want to serve as a vehicle for discussion about a group or programme within the UCCan, what's stopping us? Why do we need the social media group on board?

The support we get from the UCCan is a the occasional link. We can do that ourselves on the Facebook group.

If you think that after ripping the UCC as you have been doing that anyone in leadership is going to want to bring something like Rock the Bible here, then you do not understand the importance of respect even when we disagree, and the importance of networks and relationships.

Absolutely, the behaviour of our leadership impacts the possibility of relationship.

 

[Northwind]

Is there no room for dissent in Rock the Bible? If that is the case, I don't want to be involved. I don't want a sanitary discussion. I want to be challenged and to have to sort through some disagreement.

 

[Pinga]

Why would you presume there is no room for dissent in rock the bible?

 

[Northwind]

Why would you presume there is no room for dissent in rock the bible?

Because you seem concerned with people being nice.

 

[Pinga]

No, I believe that you can disagree and should disagree. After all, that was the goal of the forums...open minded discussion.
It doesn't mean that you can be a bully or do personal attacks.

The concept of those special forums was to be an intro to forum dialogue. A group could have a bit tighter guidelines such as a request to stay on topic, or being blocked for excessive posts.
A guest forum could for example, allow for guest questioners, or maybe a team of people posting. It could block threads so that only threads which were active for the day could be posted to, maybe moving the whole conversation to R&F after the program/study had been completed.

It was an opportunity to open dialogue in a way that had a bit better decorum.

 

[revjohn]

We can provide that, and do it better than the United Church because we're better at running an online community.

This is a claim that holds no water.

If only for the fact that this community right here and right now would not exist had it not been for The United Church of Canada's initial investment. Further to that, significant engagement by many members of The United Church of Canada influenced the shape of WonderCafe.ca and in turn influences the community that is Wondercafe2.

If community was simply about how a site is run and not at all about how we interact with one another we might be able to list parametres which make Wondercafe2 better than WonderCafe.ca. I'm more than willing to put forward the notion that it is the people who make the community and what we have here and now is more or less what WonderCafe.ca had when it finally shut its doors.

If we are a better community now that is only because we as a group have matured somewhat and decided we would treat others here and now better than we did there and then.

We are not subject to the reacting without thinking that John was talking about.

I think that is a debatable point. Especially if we determine how much thinking was involved by looking at end results. Frankly I think we have had our share of "What was so and so thinking moments." Which is not proof that there was no thinking, just an indicator that some of us didn't come to the same conclusions.

I'm not saying we're perfect, but we'd have to struggle to be worse.

I bet it would be no struggle at all. But that's my Calvinism at play. Being worse is actually, in my experience the easier option simply because it takes absolutely no effort. Being better requires us to consider what we are going to say and weight potential consequences. And as far as consequences go if we don't give a damn about them we aren't interested in communities that work for all we are simply content to have something that works for us.

And most importantly, we can say these things without fear that someone is going to delete stuff because someone, somewhere, didn't like it.

Which is likely true. That doesn't mean that community is better. Unless less restraint is automatically equated with betterness.

They aren't "light years ahead" - they did something no other church has done,

Which fits the given understandings of light-years ahead. It isn't simply about the technology it is about the distance out front and if you measure WonderCafe.ca against similar on-line initiatives by other Churches (of all flavours) in Canada it could be said we blazed a trail that few will follow. And the reason for not following has less to do with doctrine and more to do with the fact that the result is difficult to control.

When it comes to control The United Church of Canada is much more relaxed than many of our ecclesial neighbours. We still have our control freaks they are few and far between.

No other church wants an open discussion forum, and what the UCCAN realized is that they don't either.

I think we can argue about how open something must be to actually be regarded as open. Setting limits means that openness is not absolute. If that means that we must automatically think of the discussion forum as closed then Wondercafe2 is, by virtue of the same Code of Conduct a closed community. As closed as WonderCafe.ca ever was. The tell will be in the number of complaints made and the responses made to those complaints.

I don't have any data from WonderCafe.ca to know A) how many complaints were made there, B) what processes were used in following up complaints and C) what kind of communication happened to inform others with respect to resolution.

I know what I as a Moderator for Wondercafe.ca do.

I am in no position to make any kind of comparison.

But day-to-day social media operations screwed up pretty regularly, too,

Are we comparing Wondercafe2 with WonderCafe.ca or are we comparing Wondercafe2 with various Facebook groups?

If the latter, is it a fair comparison? I belong to several UCCAN affiliated Facebook groups BAM (Below Average Ministers of The United Church of Canada) is my creation and alongside Richard Bott and GordW I am Admin. and Cruxifusion (which I am not Admin for). I am not aware of any bans or deletions of material on those pages. We have a pressing issue at BAM about membership that we are chewing over.

To be perfectly candid. I enjoy both those groups. I just hate Facebooks ability to host discussion.

 

[AaronMcGallegos]

Chansen, I don't understand your need to be hostile toward me and my colleagues at the United Church. I get you have a personal interest here, and am unsatisfied with the reasons I gave for removing you from the UCCan Facebook group. As I've said before, I'm sorry about that. Much of what you are saying in this thread is completely untrue and I don't see the reason for your public attacks on me and my colleagues ("the social media people") and your apparent desire to break links between the United Church and this site. I'm sorry you don't like my social media work. But there's no need for name calling or launching unilateral attacks.

 

[chansen]

Aaron, I've never actually seen you apologize for a mistake. This is as close as you've gotten, and all you're saying is that your sorry about the reason given. The root of the problem is you have no justification for how it went down, not that you failed at wordsmithing. It was a kneejerk reaction, and under the circumstances with me actually being quite reasonable there, and the relationship between WC2 and the UCCan, called for a much different approach. All you had to do was come to me and ask, but that's not your style.

From my vantage point, you are a different person when you have moderator tools at your disposal. You are extremely eager to use them over any other form of dispute resolution. You like to bring a gun to an argument.

What I'd like to see, is evidence that you are trying to use words to disarm situations, instead of just flag chasing, deleting content and banning people. Sometimes, the flagger is just as guilty, and often more guilty than the person being flagged - they just want to be protected. Deleting entire posts almost always makes the situation worse, and I note wryly, as three of my posts are now deleted here, that we haven't learned that lesson, either.

I think it would be a good exercise for you to moderate for a month without using moderator tools. Just use words. Delete spam of course, but don't touch the "delete" button or the "ban" button for a month or two. Same with Michael. Please, consider giving it a try.

I'd like to move this forward. I do not dislike you as a person, but your moderation methods escalate situations, and you never quite get to the point of admitting fault for anything.

 

[AaronMcGallegos]

Chansen, thanks for the advice. I actually rarely have to use the moderation tools you describe, and when I do it's because I feel it's necessary and the best way to handle the situation. I understand you have a different opinion. That's fine, but as I keep saying, I don't totally agree. I've been involved in this work for more than 8 years and you and StephenBooth are pretty much the only people who have ever officially complained about my social media moderation work and you've both done so in a way that is way outside of reality. I'll consider your advice, but there really isn't much evidence to support your position. Your continued attacks and calling me and my colleagues "dicks" and "a**holes" probably aren't the best ways to make things better, and shows more about your behaviour on social media than it does about us. Why is it every time I come back here to WonderCafe2 I have to deal with these unilateral attacks?

 

[Jaebius]

Chansen, thanks for the advice. I actually rarely have to use the moderation tools you describe, and when I do it's because I feel it's necessary and the best way to handle the situation. I understand you have a different opinion. That's fine, but as I keep saying, I don't totally agree. I've been involved in this work for more than 8 years and you and StephenBooth are pretty much the only people who have ever officially complained about my social media moderation work and you've both done so in a way that is way outside of reality. I'll consider your advice, but there really isn't much evidence to support your position. Your continued attacks and calling me and my colleagues "dicks" and "a**holes" probably aren't the best ways to make things better, and shows more about your behaviour on social media than it does about us. Why is it every time I come back here to WonderCafe2 I have to deal with these unilateral attacks?

How do you know when to return?

 

[Carolla]

Can I ask you both to perhaps call a Christmas truce? Yes, you disagree on method - it will be forever thus I imagine.

 

[chansen]

Aaron, your insistence that you've done nothing wrong isn't the best way to make things better, either. It's been pointed out to me that perhaps the time of year is making me more upset than normal, and while there may be something to that, I maintain that I have a series of legitimate points here, and you failing to acknowledge any of them, and simply lumping me in with Stephen Booth, isn't helping.

I've talked to others at FB who aren't happy with the dumbing-down of that group. If there is little evidence to support what I've written, that's probably because you've already deleted it. By definition, when you delete things, there is no evidence left. And most people would just move on and would not know where to begin with a grievance. What happened to me there is not a new thing. And in terms of maintaining good relations, summarily banning the co-founder of a related website with no justification is just a dick move, and one you still haven't taken responsibility or apologized for.

 

[Waterfall]

T'was the night before Christmas,
and all through this site,
not a creature was stirring,
not even our mouse.

The arguing stopped and the laughter began,
In hopes for some peace that we all understand.
The posters had love swirling deep in their hearts,
With visions of wisdom to make us all smart.

Aaron and Chansen, stopped writing in CAPS,
Revjohn, said chill, let's just relax.
When out of some mouths there arose such a chatter,
We all read the thread, to see what was the matter.

Turned on our Windows and downloaded flash,
Read all the new posts to see who spoke last.
No mooning allowed to enhance the show,
Just words on the screen, to offer a blow.

When what on the screen did suddenly appear,
A moment of clarity that made all things clear.
My ancient old drive should be so quick,
I knew in a moment, it wasn't St. Nick.
More rapid than slingshots the curses they came,
No whistling but shouting, and calling out names.

Now Chansen, now Aaron, now Pinga you vixen,
On, Hermann, on Revjohn, on Northwind, kabitzen,
To the top of the mountain, try not to fall,
Don't lose your foothold, it's really not small.
And just as the wind will cause leaves to fly,
When an obstacle comes, they will mount to the sky.

To be continued....or feel free to add a verse,

 

[AaronMcGallegos]

Thanks folks. I've just returned today from a WC2 break, but I think I'll take another one for a while. Merry Christmas to all of you.

Beannacht –

john o'donohue

On the day
when the weight deadens
on your shoulders
and you stumble,
may the clay dance
to balance you.
And when your eyes
freeze behind the grey window
and the ghost of loss
gets in to you,
may a flock of colours,
indigo, red , green,
and azure blue
come to awaken in you
a meadow of delight.

When the canvas frays
in the currach of thought
and a stain of ocean
blackens beneath you,
may there come across the waters
a path of yellow moonlight
to bring you safely home.

May the nourishment of the earth be yours,
may the clarity of light be yours,
may the fluency of the ocean be yours,
may the protection of the ancestors be yours.
And so may a slow
wind work these words
of love around you,
an invisible cloak
to mind your life.