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I agree with you that church and state should be separate, but we should also guard against political systems that are being generated from within our churches that have nothing to do with the influence of outside political systems.
 
Waterfall said:
I agree with you that church and state should be separate, but we should also guard against political systems that are being generated from within our churches that have nothing to do with the influence of outside political systems.
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Churches are generating political systems? Are you speaking of church polities?
 
Waterfall said:
I agree with you that church and state should be separate, but we should also guard against political systems that are being generated from within our churches that have nothing to do with the influence of outside political systems.
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We should guard against anything that doesn't serve God. These are what Paul was referring to by the "principalities and powers" - the things that call us away from God and that call us to serve them instead. Having said that, "politics" broadly defined is inevitable in any human community. Even in church. Even in churches that say they are simply guided by the Holy Spirit or the Scriptures, what they're really saying is that they're being guided by how an individual or group interprets the leading of the Holy Spirit or the meaning of Scripture. It's difficult to get away from "politics" or "political systems" no matter how hard you try. You simply commit to serving God as best you can in the midst of all the competing calls on your life and time and resources.
 
revsdd said:
We should guard against anything that doesn't serve God. These are what Paul was referring to by the "principalities and powers" - the things that call us away from God and that call us to serve them instead. Having said that, "politics" broadly defined is inevitable in any human community. Even in church. Even in churches that say they are simply guided by the Holy Spirit or the Scriptures, what they're really saying is that they're being guided by how an individual or group interprets the leading of the Holy Spirit or the meaning of Scripture. It's difficult to get away from "politics" or "political systems" no matter how hard you try. You simply commit to serving God as best you can in the midst of all the competing calls on your life and time and resources.
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True, but sometimes do you think when churches or denominations get too big it sometimes becomes more political rather than about God? When I look at the Roman Catholic church for instance, they seem to exert a lot of political power coming out of their own existing system that they have created through their wealth and the loyalty they demand from their congregations.
Maybe there's a tipping point or critical mass point, where churches become too big and naturally decline when they become overly indulgent with their position in the world rather than their position with God, I don't know. When Jesus turned the tables, do you think God thought that the temple had become too political?
 
Waterfall said:
True, but sometimes do you think when churches or denominations get too big it sometimes becomes more political rather than about God? When I look at the Roman Catholic church for instance, they seem to exert a lot of political power coming out of their own existing system that they have created through their wealth and the loyalty they demand from their congregations.
Maybe there's a tipping point or critical mass point, where churches become too big and naturally decline when they become overly indulgent with their position in the world rather than their position with God, I don't know. When Jesus turned the tables, do you think God thought that the temple had become too political?
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To borrow a phrase - size doesn't matter. All churches are political. It's true that bigger churches have more clout - but the underlying issue is the same.

The overturning of tables was less about the temple than about the collection of people on the periphery of the temple, doing business and - even moreso - cheating people. That story was about the corruption of people rather than the temple itself being political.
 
Waterfall said:
True, but sometimes do you think when churches or denominations get too big it sometimes becomes more political rather than about God? When I look at the Roman Catholic church for instance, they seem to exert a lot of political power coming out of their own existing system that they have created through their wealth and the loyalty they demand from their congregations.
Maybe there's a tipping point or critical mass point, where churches become too big and naturally decline when they become overly indulgent with their position in the world rather than their position with God, I don't know. When Jesus turned the tables, do you think God thought that the temple had become too political?
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I think you get different kinds of politics in different churches and isn't really size that's the issue so much as distribution of power. The RCs, a lot of the politics comes from centralization and from flow of power up the pyramid that the Pope sits atop. In a large Protestant denomination like the UCCan, the power is more distributed so the politics are more distributed (congregations have some, presbyteries haves some, and so on). Power flows through multiple channels so you get different kinds of politics happening (internal politics at each level, politics in the interactions between levels, and so on). When you get to a congregational church, the politics is all local so you lose the dimension of conflict between levels and such, but you still have politics.

So I guess where I'm going is that politics can distract from the mission at any level and a small, highly congregational church can suffer from it just as much as a huge centralized global one. It is not size that determines the impact of politics on the church so much as the power structures of the church.
 
Waterfall said:
Do you think even the Berean church was political?
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I apologize for the cynicism, but IMHO any time there's more than two people involved, politics can and usually does happen. It's not about whether there is politics in a given group. There will be. It's about how they structure and manage those politics to keep them out of the way of the mission and use them to further that mission.

That said, I don't much about what you're referencing.
 
Mendalla said:
I think you get different kinds of politics in different churches and isn't really size that's the issue so much as distribution of power. The RCs, a lot of the politics comes from centralization and from flow of power up the pyramid that the Pope sits atop. In a large Protestant denomination like the UCCan, the power is more distributed so the politics are more distributed (congregations have some, presbyteries haves some, and so on). Power flows through multiple channels so you get different kinds of politics happening (internal politics at each level, politics in the interactions between levels, and so on). When you get to a congregational church, the politics is all local so you lose the dimension of conflict between levels and such, but you still have politics.

So I guess where I'm going is that politics can distract from the mission at any level and a small, highly congregational church can suffer from it just as much as a huge centralized global one. It is not size that determines the impact of politics on the church so much as the power structures of the church.
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But don't you have a better chance to "cleanse" the church of it's mistakes when it doesn't become obsessed with its' own importance and power? Failure to thrive would be an indication of not being fed properly.
 
Waterfall said:
But don't you have a better chance to "cleanse" the church of it's mistakes when it doesn't become obsessed with its' own importance and power?
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Yes but, again, that's a not function of size. It's still about power and how it is used and distributed. Look at the various right wing evangelical groups playing politics down south (and to some degree here). None of them is anywhere near as big as the RCs and they are still obsessed with their importance and power, as you put it. A congregational church could be obsessed with it's own power and importance, it's just that that power and importance would be local rather than global in scope and might even be all in their own heads.
 
Jesus, in proclaiming the coming of the Kingdom of God was being expressly political.

The Gospel is his manifesto outlining his political emphasis.

That there is bad politics proves that in order for such a qualifier to be useful there must be good politics.

I believe the politics of the Kingdom of God to be the best politics even though the visible expression of Church often falls short.
 
Is God the hole thing or presently isolated as a myth?

Is this something that we could fall into and cause collapse of something without sensations? Pure nonsense would open a door to the abstract projection ... ah ole in space, as ancient daze ... that look of suspicion? It can isolate or even integrate given a chance to be cogniz'ante!

What's a Niz? Resembles "anis" IHC ... the concern for sedum ... blind entrance?

At this level you can talk about things and the alternate dynamics won't know you're deep into wiz Dumb ... an absolute abstraction ... I.E. they won't know ... a grand cover-up distilled as cove nante ... Nante being a car rot ...
 
revsdd -----your statement ------We should guard against anything that doesn't serve God

I so agree with this statement and if I might add Give God the Glory ---I listened to your Sermon on the How was Church today sight on money -----and may I say I thought it was really done well -----and I can understand why the energy was low -----it is a touchy subject ------as far as the church being political goes I feel that Christ who is head of the Church must be the Lord over all political views that are in place in the Church -----I personally don't think you can totally distance the 2 ---

When you mix the church with politics many leave God out and serve the political end only ----because you can't 100% server 2 Masters but you can serve what God has put in place if He is directing the proceedings ----the catch is to allow God to remain the focus not the politics and allow the Holy Spirit to guide the political side ----

Jesus said this very well when He said---- "Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s,” ---so here we see Jesus saying you have an obligation to serve God and Caesar ----our loyalty is of course to God first but we can't just shrug our responsibility to Caesar -----the 2 can work if God is directing the Church and the Politics in His House -----in my view -----
 
If God is everything ... do many isolate parts of god?

OMG ... that part ... brutii fours or brontosaurus ... an ancient of dais ... one of those auld things with bite ...
 
My view -------The Importance in choosing rightly who to worship

Joshua 24

Joshua is telling the people of Israel that they have a choice to make in which god they want to serve -----

They could serve false gods that their ancestors worshiped while they were slaves in Egypt ----The Israelites were always being tempted to go along with the culture and worship the false gods of society

And for me this is the reason people today serve false gods ----- many choose to worship what gods are in their religious culture and disregard the one true God -----The problem today is there are to many False Religions and to many False Prophets bearing false witness to the people and people can be conned very easily ----

This is a perfect example of how God dealt with Moses's unbelief that God could speak through him -----God had Aaron deliver the message
to the people

In Exodus 7:1, God tells Moses that Aaron, his brother, would be his (Moses') prophet, even as Moses was God's prophet. Because of Moses' unbelief in God's ability to speak through him, God would speak to Moses, who would tell Aaron what to say to others -

So this shows that the one true God will make sure His message is delivered the way He wants it delivered by providing a way for it to be delivered rightly -----God because of Moses's unbelief couldn't trust that His message would be delivered rightly and yet He trusted Moses to bring His people out of Egypt ----Now we have the Holy Spirit to direct what God wants heard ----

Many Churches have Prophets today that say they speak for the one true God but their message is far from what the Word of God says ----they preach only half truths and add their own spin on scripture so to my mind they are not serving God they serve a false god -----And God has grave consequences for this -----in the Old Testament and the New

Deuteronomy 18:20-22
(20) But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’

Galatians 1:8 (GNT)
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel that is different from the one we preached to you, may he be condemned to hell!

God made man in His image ----but sinful man in my view ----says I will make god in my image the way I want my god to be so I can do what I want and I will tells others about my god ------

As Joshua says ---- 15 “But maybe you don’t want to serve the Lord. You must choose for yourselves today. Today you must decide who you will serve.

There comes a time when the people who call themselves Christians but serve this world as well will have to make a choice to decide which side to really serve -----the false god of this world or the one true God who resided in Heaven cause you can't serve both ----

So in my mind when we mix this world's ways and do what society says is OK while saying we follow God's ways we are serving a false god ----trying to serve the one true God can lead to failure or quitting cause it's no fun or to hard ----
 
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