Muslims & Christians: Same God?

[GordW]

--Hi there coming to be a REV.Jae--The one you call Jesus" new nothing of heaven. He that was the other part of Jesus , called, The Christ knew all thing's , He needed to know. His Father told Him" , how He was going to save the world. Jae instead of reading so many of those other Books . You may want to try GODS WORD more.

Umm you know that you have just denied the "wholly human, wholly divine" thing about Jesus/Christ? They are not separable in traditional Christian theology. I will talk about the Jesus of history (about whom we know very little to nothing that has not been told through the filters of Easter) and the Christ of faith [or the pre-easter and post-easter Jesus] but that is about how he was perceived and understood by those around him. It isn't that he had two non-communicating natures

 

[Neo]

On the contrary, Jesus places special stress on compassion for the socially marginalized, all the while demanding total allegiance to His lordship.

So where does Jesus demand allegiance to His lordship?

 

[airclean33]

Umm you know that you have just denied the "wholly human, wholly divine" thing about Jesus/Christ?

Airclean--post--You know you just made a mistake Rev. I said The person called Christ Jesus, was a hole person of flesh , as well as a hole person of spirit.

GordW --post--
They are not separable in traditional Christian theology. I will talk about the Jesus of history (about whom we know very little to nothing that has not been told through the filters of Easter) and the Christ of faith [or the pre-easter and post-easter Jesus] but that is about how he was perceived and understood by those around him. It isn't that he had two non-communicating natures.

Airclean--post--So if He was not more than one part . He then would have been different than you and I. Unless you believe he did have a spirit. Now we do know He was born of Mary , we also know God sent a part of Him , from Heaven. That being The Christ, or son of GOD. I wonder why the Bible said He had to learn obedience . Would you not think The Son of GOD , coming from heaven ,would know that?

 

[Mystic]

So where does Jesus demand allegiance to His lordship?

The same Jesus who warns, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me," goes on to explain that discipleship means surrender to Jesus as our Lord and obedience to His commands and example. "You call me Teacher and Lord, and that is what I am. So if I'm your Lord and Teacher have just washed your feet, you must wash each other's feet (John 13:14-14)."

We cannot claim Jesus as our Lord without obeying His commandments. "Why do you call me Lord. Lord and not do what I tell you (Luke 6:46)?"

We must love Jesus as our Lord more than our family and more than the pursuit of our life's priorities. "Whoever comes to me and does not hate his father, mother, wife, and children..., yes even life itself, cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple (Luke 14:26-37)." "Hate" here does not mean "despise;" it means "a lower priority."

 

[Neo]

The same Jesus who warns, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me," goes on to explain that discipleship means surrender to Jesus as our Lord and obedience to His commands and example. "You call me Teacher and Lord, and that is what I am. So if I'm your Lord and Teacher have just washed your feet, you must wash each other's feet (John 13:14-14)."

We cannot claim Jesus as our Lord without obeying His commandments. "Why do you call me Lord. Lord and not do what I tell you (Luke 6:46)?"

We must love Jesus as our Lord more than our family and more than the pursuit of our life's priorities. "Whoever comes to me and does not hate his father, mother, wife, and children..., yes even life itself, cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple (Luke 14:26-37)." "Hate" here does not mean "despise;" it means "a lower priority."

This is your theology that believes we need to worship Christ, (if that is what you meant). "Don't worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book", He was quoted in Revelations 19:10, "Worship only God!".

The life of Christ was lived out as an example that we can all live by, a life of sacrifice and loving service to the plan. Should we love Him as the great Teacher, a Master of Masters that He that is? Yes, indeed. Should we worship Him? I would say not. As you quoted above, Christ said "whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple". A disciple respects and honours and even loves his teacher. He should not, however, have to give up his heart and soul to that Teacher. A disciple should learn to stand on his own and walk the path of renunciation on his own. The divinity within his heart is a heritage from God that has always been there. The Teacher helps the disciple come to that awareness.

 

[Neo]

"Humanity has never really lived up to the teaching given it. Spiritual impression, whether conveyed by the Christ, by Krishna or by Buddha (and passed on to the masses by Their disciples) has not yet been expressed as it was hoped. Men do not live up to what they already know; they fail to make practical their information; they short circuit the light; they do not discipline themselves; greedy desire and unlawful ambition control and not the inner knowledge. To put it scientifically and from the esoteric angle: Spiritual impression has been interrupted and there has been interference with the divine circulatory flow. It is the task of the disciples of the world to restore this flow and to stop this interference. This is the major problem facing spiritual people at this time. "
- from the book Problems of Humanity by Alice A. Bailey

 

[revsdd]

This is your theology that believes we need to worship Christ, (if that is what you meant).

"Don't worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book", He was quoted in Revelations 19:10, "Worship only God!".

The life of Christ was lived out as an example that we can all live by, a life of sacrifice and loving service to the plan. Should we love Him as the great Teacher, a Master of Masters that He that is? Yes, indeed. Should we worship Him? I would say not. As you quoted above, Christ said "whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple". A disciple respects and honours and even loves his teacher. He should not, however, have to give up his heart and soul to that Teacher. A disciple should learn to stand on his own and walk the path of renunciation on his own. The divinity within his heart is a heritage from God that has always been there. The Teacher helps the disciple come to that awareness.

Neo, the words you're quoting from Revelation 19:10 are not words of Jesus, and it's not honest to quote Revelation 19:10 and say that it's Jesus speaking. Revelation 19:9 clearly introduces the following words (including what you quoted) by saying "Then the angel said to me." Taking a verse out of context and then using it to make a point that the words don't make is dishonest.

 

[airclean33]

Good day--Neo-- I believe you made a mistake here.

--Neo posted--
This is your theology that believes we need to worship Christ, (if that is what you meant). "Don't worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book", He was quoted in Revelations 19:10, "Worship only God!".

Airclean--post-- I believe you will find ,who you think is Christ . is an Angel.

 

[Neo]

Thanks Revsdd and Airclean, my bad for cherry picking quotes.

 

[airclean33]

Sorry there Rev . Had I known you were posting . Very much the same thing. I would have stood off.

 

[Neo]

Neo, the words you're quoting from Revelation 19:10 are not words of Jesus, and it's not honest to quote Revelation 19:10 and say that it's Jesus speaking. Revelation 19:9 clearly introduces the following words (including what you quoted) by saying "Then the angel said to me." Taking a verse out of context and then using it to make a point that the words don't make is dishonest.

Yes, though this wasn't done out of dishonesty. I was simply attempting to state my point far too quickly and should've spent a little more time in looking into this quote. And for this I apologize.

But I believe my point still stands. I don't ever remember Christ asking us to worship Him as a person. And maybe it's Him as God that Mystic was talking about. Nevertheless, Christ did say to "pick up the cross" and promised that we would do "greater things". These kind of claims say to me that we have to find God within our own Soul.

 

[revsdd]

Yes, though this wasn't done out of dishonesty. I was simply attempting to state my point far too quickly and should've spent a little more time in looking into this quote. And for this I apologize.

But I believe my point still stands. I don't ever remember Christ asking us to worship Him as a person. And maybe it's Him as God that Mystic was talking about. Nevertheless, Christ did say to "pick up the cross" and promised that we would do "greater things". These kind of claims say to me that we have to find God within our own Soul.

The suggestion f dishonesty was actually a kind of compliment (admittedly back-handed) to you, because I thought you'd be more careful than to simply mistakenly quote a verse out of context. So, I apologize for that accusation.

You're correct that Jesus never asked anyone to worship him. However, there are many examples in the Gospels of the disciples (and others) worshipping Jesus, and Jesus does not rebuke them for it. He accepts their worship.

 

[Neo]

The suggestion f dishonesty was actually a kind of compliment (admittedly back-handed) to you, because I thought you'd be more careful than to simply mistakenly quote a verse out of context. So, I apologize for that accusation.

I usually am more cognizant of the quotes I make, guess I'm slippin' today..

 

[Neo]

You're correct that Jesus never asked anyone to worship him. However, there are many examples in the Gospels of the disciples (and others) worshipping Jesus, and Jesus does not rebuke them for it. He accepts their worship.

And we wouldn't expect anything less from a Master of Compassion.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

be·lieve
bəˈlēv/
verb

1. 
   
   • accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.

The Oxford English has it as
Accept that (something) is true, especially without proof:
Or did you omit that.

 

[revsdd]

And we wouldn't expect anything less from a Master of Compassion.

And yet, Jesus often rebuked people for a variety of reasons, including his own disciples. But never for worshipping him.

 

[Mystic]

I don't want to pick on neo specifically because unlike so many on this site, Neo has thought through what he says and engages specific biblical claims. Steve is right that Jesus is often worshiped, apparently with His approval. The most important example of this is Doubting Thomas's worship of Jesus and confession "My Lord and my God" in the resurrection appearance in John 20. But none of this has anything to do with the answer to Neo's original question "Where does Jesus insist that we embrace and obey Him as Lord. Obedience is different from worship.

 

[dreamerman]

Thanks Revsdd and Airclean, my bad for cherry picking quotes.

You are only allowed to cherry pick quotes when the scriptures are in season or when you run out of grapes to make wine.

 

[Neo]

And yet, Jesus often rebuked people for a variety of reasons, including his own disciples. But never for worshipping him.

I believe the Christ must've been and is very well aware of His elevated perspective in relation to the ordinary Humanity. With all due respect He was and is a Great Lord. He is fully God-Aware; which is something that apparently all of us have the ability to be.

@Mystic Should we "obey" someone of such great stature? Of course we should, at least in the same way we would listen, trust and obey a University professor in regards to the subject at hand. Someone like the Christ is a Master of Masters, which is a level so far above us that if we could ever even glimpse the vista that He is aware of then we would probably drop to our knees in total humility.

 

[Mendalla]

at least in the same way we would listen, trust and obey a University professor in regards to the subject at hand.

I get your point but it is a bad example. University professors have to earn that trust just as anyone else does. Just getting a Ph.D. and tenure should never be enough for us "trust and obey" someone. IME, they are not always as intelligent or as knowledgeable about their subject as they would have us believe and should be subject to questioning as much as anyone, perhaps more so. And I'm saying that as the spouse of a professor. She's earned it from what I've seen and heard from her students over the years, but many of her colleagues pretty clearly have not.