Mode of Baptism

[Jaebius]

crazyheart asked me in one of the Remit threads of @revjohn -

@ Pr, jae , why is immersion better?

I'll share my own belief later. For now, I'll give a general Baptist response...

It's important to note that Baptists believe that baptism is an ordinance, rather than a sacrament. We baptize as an outer symbol of an inward reality - that a person has died to self by accepting Jesus Christ and has risen to new life. It's like we're putting on a drama. Baptists believe that baptism by immersion demonstrates this inner reality best - as one is laid down in the water (symbolizing dying) and then brought back up (symbolizing being brought into new life by Christ).

In addition, Baptists would note things like this...

 

[revjohn]

What is the foundation of the sacrament/ordinance/rite?

What is it about the Lord's Supper, for example, that makes the Lord's Supper the Lord's Supper? Is it the elements used? Is it the intent of the community? Is it the presence of God? Is it all of that together so that if one part is missing the sacrament/ordinance/rite does not happen?

What is it about Baptism, for example, that makes the Baptism one which God participates in? Is it the will of the individual seeking to be baptized? Is it the will of parents or guardians who seek to have a child baptized? Is it the individual presiding? Is it the will of God? Is it all of that together so that if one part is missing the sacrament/ordinance does not happen?

And the covenants that these means of grace supply what about them? Is the covenant between God and the Church? God and the individual? God and the presider?

Institutions get bogged down by such questions.

I don't think God gets bogged down by such questions.

God is either present and participating or God is doing neither. If we are looking at ways to exclude individuals from accessing grace we aren't doing the job we were given in the great Commission.

I undertand the house rules thing. Certain folk like certain things done certain ways. To stand up and proclaim that another way is wrong or is invalid takes an incredible amount of arrogance, particularly when God is silent on what God finds acceptable.

Poor starving Peter up on the roof top. Provided a banquet by God of things Peter has been forbidden to eat. Of course it is a trap, a test of Peter's loyalty right? Three times hungry Peter has to prove his devotion to God and his submission to dietary restrictions. How does that end?

Does it not end with God rebuking Peter? Does it not end with God saying, "Do not call unclean what I have made clean." Of course it doesn't. It ends with a knock on the door and some gentile servants pleading with Peter to come and visit their gentile master.

Do we hear what God said to Peter?

Do we understand what God said to Peter?

Gentiles weren't made unclean. So they aren't unclean and Peter and Paul would fight for Gentile inclusion in the early Church without them having to convert first to Judaism.

What water was made unclean by God? What covenant participant was made unclean by God. More to the point which element or supplicant has not been made clean by God?

Peter needed a footwash only because he had already been cleansed.

According to the Didache the minimum amount of water required is a shot of spittle in the palm of your hand. Ain't nobody getting immersed in that.

What is offensive is one Christian saying to another, your baptism isn't valid.

Which was a rather key element of the Donatist heresy so many years ago.

 

[crazyheart]

On the above poll, I think sprinkling,pouring, immersion are all valid according to

your church's wishes.

My question also included, Can you be baptised more than once and

why would you?

 

[Mendalla]

I went with all of the above. In the end, it is the intent, of either the baptisee or the parents, not the mode, that should matter. Personally, I became rather in favour of adult baptism in my latter days as a Christian but was hardly dogmatic on the issue.

Can you be baptised more than once and

why would you?

I would respond "why not?". I'm sure that I saw it happen once with someone who was re-dedicating themselves to Jesus after some experience or other. If were to return to a Christian church as a result of some conversion experience, rather than just because it was the best option I could find, I might want to be baptized again. That's speaking hypothetically, though.

 

[Jaebius]

My question also included, Can you be baptised more than once and why would you?

Hmm... well, I was baptized twice - depending on what the definition of baptism is to be.

My first baptism was a paedobaptism, done without my consent in a UCCanada congregation in Fredericton, New Brunswick.

My second baptism was a credobaptism, done with my consent in a Baptist church here in Toronto.

Why was I baptized twice? Because I accepted the Baptist belief that the first one didn't count as it wasn't done by immersion as a public proclamation of my faith in obedience to Christ.

 

[Luce NDs]

Thus leaving a person sharp behind the ears or other wisely whetted?

In For Whom the Belle Tolls there is a good little quote (fore word) about headlands against de "c" ... that some say is dizean affection ... vert egos ...

 

[Mendalla]

a public proclamation of my faith in obedience to Christ.

This phrase kind of cuts to why I was leaning to adult baptism. To my eye, it should be about the baptisee being baptized into a relationship with God/Christ, not their family doing it for them.

Were I setting up a Christian church, I would have a UU style dedication for infants and leave baptism up to the child when they grow up and can take the vows for themselves.

 

[Luce NDs]

Children are exposed to the dirty wash of their family ... no matter how they try and hide the wake left behind eM ... contrary to that theory that everything affects everything elle's! Althought with acceptance of the world of lyons ... the lyre can bring you to redaction of elle's to else!

It is an enigma that develops under the Principle you cannot speak truth as it hurts ... perhaps social constructs of norms that may be mortally limiting ... moral non-sense against ethics? The impact of the fabric is blip versus dimples ...

 

[Jaebius]

This phrase kind of cuts to why I was leaning to adult baptism. To my eye, it should be about the baptisee being baptized into a relationship with God/Christ, not their family doing it for them.

Were I setting up a Christian church, I would have a UU style dedication for infants and leave baptism up to the child when they grow up and can take the vows for themselves.

Mendalla the Baptist

 

[GordW]

Here is another perspective:
a young woman, baptized as a child, goes through confirmation and makes her public profession of faith as a young adult. Then becomes involved with a community that practices believer's baptism and is told that she would have to be baptized there. Except her previous baptism and profession of faith and upbringing in that community (in this case UCCan) is in fact of great value/meaning/validity to her and she has no real desire to say otherwise.

What would you say?

 

[Jaebius]

Here is another perspective:
a young woman, baptized as a child, goes through confirmation and makes her public profession of faith as a young adult. Then becomes involved with a community that practices believer's baptism and is told that she would have to be baptized there. Except her previous baptism and profession of faith and upbringing in that community (in this case UCCan) is in fact of great value/meaning/validity to her and she has no real desire to say otherwise.

What would you say?

A situation quite like this actually came up at one point in my church about a decade ago. A Presbyterian woman who had been baptized as you suggest Gord wanted to join our church, but stated that her baptism by sprinkling meant as much to her as our baptisms by immersion meant to us. The senior pastor brought the matter to a regularly-called member's meeting and took a vote on what the church should do. We corporately decided that we would not accept the woman's sprinkling as being a valid baptism. After we informed her of our decision, she decided to attend church elsewhere.

 

[revsdd]

Having baptized both infants and adults, and having been baptized as an adult, I personally favour infant baptism. Since baptism is a means of grace, infant baptism is, to me, a much more powerful statement of the grace of God being operative in a person's life from the very beginning, without the individual having done anything to earn it, whereas adult baptisms have a tendency to emphasize the faith of the person being baptized rather than the grace of God. I also shy away from people who say "being baptized as an adult is so much more meaningful to me." Hmmm. Faith isn't about "what's meaningful to me," it's about what God does for me. I also think we make far too much of the promises of the parents, as if God isn't capable of working in the child's life without the help of the parents. Again - is infant baptism about the baptism of the infant or the faith of the parents? I'm not a fan of re-baptism, as it seems to imply that the first baptism "didn't take," in some way.

 

[Naman]

I would like to see an instant baptism. The pastor gets the candidate to stand on a trap door and they have a barrel of water under the stage and.......

 

[Jaebius]

I would like to see an instant baptism. The pastor gets the candidate to stand on a trap door and they have a barrel of water under the stage and.......

Hmm... I suppose that would qualify as an immersion.

 

[Luce NDs]

Hmm... I suppose that would qualify as an immersion.

Sounds to me like the Nous of religion ... a principle once entered hard to escape and see what the eternal has beyond that .. even hidden in back of it like Shadows of myth ... things poorly understood by the entrained institutionalism and institutional slaves ... no getting beyond that moral ground!

 

[Jaebius]

Sounds to me like the Nous of religion ... a principle once entered hard to escape and see what the eternal has beyond that .. even hidden in back of it like Shadows of myth ... things poorly understood by the entrained institutionalism and institutional slaves ... no getting beyond that moral ground!

The thing about Baptists Kuce, ice that Baptists center baptism act an ordinance - not a sacrament. @revsdd ported that baptism ice a "means of grade" - a notion shish Baptists political. Baptists don't believe that baptism ice a conduit for God to shovel hick grade through. For Baptists, itch al about a performance.

 

[Luce NDs]

The thing about Baptists Kuce, ice that Baptists center baptism act an ordinance - not a sacrament. @revsdd ported that baptism ice a "means of grade" - a notion shish Baptists political. Baptists don't believe that baptism ice a conduit for God to shovel hick grade through. For Baptists, itch al about a performance.

You mean ordinance like some use the bible as a oand not the good Nous of good learning as they feel knowledge is evil? Leaves the whole thing in a goth state kinda dark and unknown or at least unseen as the Shadow that suggests some experience in observation against a bunch that says:

• Don't Look
• Don't liste
• Don't even speak of it
• (Thus excluding the media of thinking thereof, the process of knowledge getting worked up from the humble state where it is placed by the heir Goos ...?)

 

[Jaebius]

You mean ordinance like some use the bible as a oand not the good Nous of good learning as they feel knowledge is evil? Leaves the whole thing in a goth state kinda dark and unknown or at least unseen as the Shadow that suggests some experience in observation against a bunch that says:

• Don't Look
• Don't liste
• Don't even speak of it
• (Thus excluding the media of thinking thereof, the process of knowledge getting worked up from the humble state where it is placed by the heir Goos ...?)

Actuary Luce, the acquisition of knowledge ice a big thin in Baptist swirlies. What al to often ice mixing ice emotion, packing, vitality, and energy.

 

[revsdd]

The thing about Baptists Kuce, ice that Baptists center baptism act an ordinance - not a sacrament. @revsdd ported that baptism ice a "means of grade" - a notion shish Baptists political. Baptists don't believe that baptism ice a conduit for God to shovel hick grade through. For Baptists, itch al about a performance.

Assuming that I'm interpreting you correctly - neither do I believe that baptism "is a conduit for God to shovel his grace through." As a means of grace, it makes grace visible. I also like your statement that Baptists see baptism as a performance. So it is with infant baptism. It is a performance of God's grace being poured out on one who is totally undeserving of that grace. God doesn't have to "shovel" grace "through" anything. Grace is there.

I must be honest. I have a rather low view of baptism. I could never be a Baptist! I think that baptism - while potentially valuable - has been abused and distorted throughout the centuries and used primarily to create unnecessary divisions between Christians.

 

[Luce NDs]

What happens though is in the search for exuberance ... people tend to get extreme and talk about things they can't possibly know ... like that beyond mortal ... or myth!

Human emotions are tended towards stretching points so they can impose fear on the opposition.

Just watch confidence people in life ...