I guess it's not resonating with anyone else in the thread right now that some of the forces creating a society that is unhealthy are also promising us health benefits.
Mindful meditation may be keeping humanity stuck...
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If mindfulness in clinical practice is a step toward a better world I don't see the evidence.
You know what's extremely unhealthy? - spending an afternoon crossing paths with easily hundreds of people in a day and not having a meaningful conversation with a single one person because we're afraid to. And that happens now more than ever.
I had the best conversation with the guy who works at the dispensary, by my favourite cafe, out having a smoke, sitting on a flower box on the sidewalk (blowing it toward the road, btw). If it weren't for him I wouldn't have had much RL interaction beyond saying hello to the bus driver and barista...oh and my doctors appointment earlier. But that's not what I consider meaningful interaction as much as just the business of the day.
You know what's extremely unhealthy? - spending an afternoon crossing paths with easily hundreds of people in a day and not having a meaningful conversation with a single one person because we're afraid to. And that happens now more than ever.
I had the best conversation with the guy who works at the dispensary, by my favourite cafe, out having a smoke, sitting on a flower box on the sidewalk (blowing it toward the road, btw). If it weren't for him I wouldn't have had much RL interaction beyond saying hello to the bus driver and barista...oh and my doctors appointment earlier. But that's not what I consider meaningful interaction as much as just the business of the day.
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I talked to him and a friendly busker taking a break. Everyone else was walking by, getting places, not looking anyone in the eye.
Ritafee
Is Being Human
That statement resonates with me ... mindfully!
It is enough of a high to trigger pain relief chemicals. Mindfulness Meditation supposedly also helps depression - so it is inducing a high of sorts. Just not a euphoria, necessarily.
There is really little known about the extent of endorphins ... and how they pair up with genes ... some raising and some relaxing concerns!
Like the man that gets beer-happy versus the mad beer-man ... there's even a song about it!
Endorphins are endogenous as endocrines ... thus causing an in and out cycle from when vegetable matter like ephrine is consumed ... as a split ... allowing a variation in the word endogeneity (possible meaning separation of data and statistics from desiderata and emotional irrationality). This may go on for some time if committed to ... that's determined!
From there it went ...
From there it went ...
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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And do we have any actual evidence of this? Because my anecdotal experience is not this. It assumes everyone doing it is the same and learning the same way and that just is not reality. And, honestly, is it doing any more harm than corporate Christianity which likely makes far more money and has far more impact socially and politically than mindfulness ever will. After all, it was not meditators who supported and elected Trump. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if meditation practitioners are as likely to lean left as right socially and politically. I have no evidence, just a gut feeling based on meditation practitioners I have known.
Mendalla
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So I am thinking this may be my final post on the matter.
The problem with Western society is people being inward-looking and self-centred. Mindfulness didn't cause that, though Western practice of mindfulness has certainly been affected by it (I'll give you that much). As I suggested upthread, you see it in how the West has approached yoga, too. Christianity is likely closer to being the root of the problem than mindfulness since Western individualism arguably began with the notion of individual personal salvation, rather than collective salvation of humanity as a species, being the focus of the faith. That goes back a long ways.
So if Western mindfulness practice becoming, or encouraging, inward-looking self-centeredness is really a symptom, we need to go back to Western individualism and the extreme forms of it that permeate the modern and post-modern world as the disease. That's what needs to be fixed.
In the East Asian cultures where mindfulness originated, they generally see themselves as elements of their society, not just as individuals. That's why we don't see mass movements for individual rights there. The idea just isn't part of the culture and our attempts to impose it on them are, in the end, cultural imperialism. They may swing too far the other way (society trumps individual has its problems, too), but self-centred, inward-looking individualism is not the problem there.
In the West, we see ourselves as individuals consenting to participate in a society. The individual's needs and wants trump those of broader society.
Which one is more likely to produce self-centred, inward-looking people?
The problem with Western society is people being inward-looking and self-centred. Mindfulness didn't cause that, though Western practice of mindfulness has certainly been affected by it (I'll give you that much). As I suggested upthread, you see it in how the West has approached yoga, too. Christianity is likely closer to being the root of the problem than mindfulness since Western individualism arguably began with the notion of individual personal salvation, rather than collective salvation of humanity as a species, being the focus of the faith. That goes back a long ways.
So if Western mindfulness practice becoming, or encouraging, inward-looking self-centeredness is really a symptom, we need to go back to Western individualism and the extreme forms of it that permeate the modern and post-modern world as the disease. That's what needs to be fixed.
In the East Asian cultures where mindfulness originated, they generally see themselves as elements of their society, not just as individuals. That's why we don't see mass movements for individual rights there. The idea just isn't part of the culture and our attempts to impose it on them are, in the end, cultural imperialism. They may swing too far the other way (society trumps individual has its problems, too), but self-centred, inward-looking individualism is not the problem there.
In the West, we see ourselves as individuals consenting to participate in a society. The individual's needs and wants trump those of broader society.
Which one is more likely to produce self-centred, inward-looking people?
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Northwind
Stationary nomad.
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I just discovered this thread. It has been interesting to read through the comments.
I was first introduced to Kabat-Zinn 20-ish years ago. I was working with a man who was Buddhist and who was promoting mindfulness meditation. He was from the southern US and had converted to Buddhism after having taken a meditation course. He was the most centred person I'd ever met. He was kind, compassionate and interested in the well being of others. I took an intro workshop with him.
I've since taken yoga classes which have incorporated meditation techniques. I've also seen meditation used in clinical settings to help people cope with addictions and mental health issues. Overall, I've seen the positive benefits from it. People learn to become comfortable within their own skin and no longer look to things like drugs and anxiety to distract themselves. As a result, they can become more compassionate towards others.
I believe my experience with meditation and mindfulness has helped me with my current health issues. I had an MRI the other day and was able to relax and breathe through the procedure. Another five minutes and I would have fallen asleep. Mindfulness has helped me take things a day at a time. I have made a choice to use my creativity for good instead of using it to live in the future and make myself crazy.
When I am more mindful, my brain is more focused and I can think clearer. I have been known to go off in all directions when I am not centred.
I love Thich Nhat Hanh. I read Living Buddha Living Christ and Peace is Every Step. Both had an impact on me.
Can the mindfulness meditation thing make us more selfish? Maybe. It can also teach us to clear our brains so we can be more effective making change.
I was first introduced to Kabat-Zinn 20-ish years ago. I was working with a man who was Buddhist and who was promoting mindfulness meditation. He was from the southern US and had converted to Buddhism after having taken a meditation course. He was the most centred person I'd ever met. He was kind, compassionate and interested in the well being of others. I took an intro workshop with him.
I've since taken yoga classes which have incorporated meditation techniques. I've also seen meditation used in clinical settings to help people cope with addictions and mental health issues. Overall, I've seen the positive benefits from it. People learn to become comfortable within their own skin and no longer look to things like drugs and anxiety to distract themselves. As a result, they can become more compassionate towards others.
I believe my experience with meditation and mindfulness has helped me with my current health issues. I had an MRI the other day and was able to relax and breathe through the procedure. Another five minutes and I would have fallen asleep. Mindfulness has helped me take things a day at a time. I have made a choice to use my creativity for good instead of using it to live in the future and make myself crazy.
When I am more mindful, my brain is more focused and I can think clearer. I have been known to go off in all directions when I am not centred.
I love Thich Nhat Hanh. I read Living Buddha Living Christ and Peace is Every Step. Both had an impact on me.
Can the mindfulness meditation thing make us more selfish? Maybe. It can also teach us to clear our brains so we can be more effective making change.
“In the West, we see ourselves as individuals consenting to participate in a society. The individual's needs and wants trump those of broader society.”
Which is wrong, and why the world’s so f’kd right now. I think individual needs are important but not to the point of the utterly narcissistic society we live in that wants us not to look at the big picture beyond where they want us to look, or where it’s profitable. It the capitalist machine and the messages it pumps out that are to blame. In the late stages of it...we’ve tried (society) to capitalize on spiritual practice, too. Whether it was the prosperity gospel style of Christianity, self-help, or this...spirituality hijacked for money is what all of that is. I think the article was just making the point that the mindfulness industry is now a capitalist problem and we should recognize the problematic aspects.
That’s great its helping you! Seriously I am not against the individual health benefits...and you learned from some real teaching, it sounds like. And you need to focus on helping you at this time!! I understand that you need to do whatever helps right now.
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It’s one of those things that, maybe we should be aware, as part of the capitalist cultural machine/ zeitgeist...we get used to the way society operates which isn’t good...carries risks of a self centred society in a broader sense. We are kind of herded in a particular way by capitalism, in the way that makes somebody the most money, before we even realize it. Especially with the monetization of spiritual practice...it’s a banal evil in a broad sense, imo.
Once something is profitable for a few people, sooner or later it’s going to screw up society.
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I was raised by someone completely f***ed up by self help. She once (twice, she went twice) went on a three day, maybe longer, inward retreat in a group with some “guru” of sorts who “pushed them to the Wall”...some like survivor island type thing, but in a hotel. Part of the 80s new agey self help wave, that screwed people up the first time around. She spent about a year and I don’t know how many thousands on this stuff. She went back and did that wall thing again, and paid for it. I was 12, in between homes. She is absolutely incapable of looking beyond what’s best for her, or caring about the world. It’s heartbreaking watching her avoid caring. It put her selfish tendencies...which I know I learned some of from my parents, in overdrive...and she has also done mindfulness, which seems to affirm her outlook. Every time I bring up a big issue in the world she can’t handle it. She just can’t. She can’t handle sickness or incapacity of others close to her. It makes her furious. The scope of what she’s capable of considering is myopic. And she’s by far not the only one i’ve met, like this.
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We don’t have evidence that it’s helping society, either. The real thing probably would...like, real Buddhist practice.
I agree if everyone were all meditators, Trump would never have been elected. But if everyone were all meditators, meditation would never have been capitalized on either! !
I was raised in the 80s. The adults of that decade must’ve been the most selfish on record...anecdotal, of course. And it screwed us up, and how we were taught to think. Just about every cultural and political trend in the 80s was a screw up (except lgbt rights). And this only follows that....it’s related.
Wrong thread
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paradox3
Peanuts Fan
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I have used mindfulness techniques in a clinical setting. We had some training from one of Kabat-Zinn's associates but I don't recall the individual's name. He really focused on how to conduct the inquiry phase after the mindfulness exercises. I thought the process was worthwhile for our clients although some found it more helpful than others.
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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You can't talk about mindfulness meditation without self-hypnosis. It was via hypnosis that I went from being a 35-year, 2 pack a day smoker, to a relaxed non-smoker. I think there's a lot of magic in our sub-conscious that remains untapped.
You still smoke weed, or use it daily though, right? I think that might be an easier switch to make than just with meditation, because the cannibis state of mind itself might aid the meditation making it easier....though if someone is deeply meditative, alone, then it might be easier if they already feel good while blocking out cravings. But could you give up weed easily?
:|
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