Matthew 2 - They came bearing gifts

[Luce NDs]

Is respect a lost appreciation for things hidden in the darkness of sol?

Thus redacting before the whiteout ... a s now Job ...

Then one man declared to know everything until cornered on a topic and he replied: "I really didn't know that person as ole!"

Thus dark auld thing rise overhead as Eris in misjudgement ... given what we really don't know ... totalitarian folk of avarice will never admit to such flat out missals ... stuff in the box?

There are compartments for everything and some places to go not ... yet rleigion creeps into politics ... or is it the other way about? Where do mediums reside? Be yond me ... thus Yons and Yawns as the abyss descends ... the tyring of life? It also goes round ... like intoxication and the domain of lies to support what's up there ... sometimes labelled noxious! The neigh trojan root ... deeper portions of the tree of knowledge? Thus the underground, understood and down there as sticklers ... thorny issue?

Is auld puched or reamed as in Judean domains? I am remis to mention such things that the heirarchy did not wiise to observe as science ... thus the o' logical fallacy ... it is a broken system also ... because it is constitued of folk ... a broken peopling ... some peep 'oles required to exit ... thus the black points on the page as dialectics ... some even drop such structures ... creating dyslexic ... quick look the other way!

 

[Luce NDs]

Never ever tell the virtue to a physical god ... they can't handle such things after such exposures here ... leading to a failed experience in what's what!

Following that the populaces is so upset they cannot tell directions in an abstract dimension ... leads to verte Goe'đ ... upright as ET! Quite pistemic ... and folk fall out fo "M"! Nuts are out of their tree ... know! Yah ... I am familiar with the irrational application of that expression ... you'll seize when hitting the ground of bean ... some say Ullyses ... and they never grasp the icon ... it was followed by the cat*on the tracks ...

Makes no sense? It is merely human ... virtue is basically unseen! Thus the living of the lie or what some say is surviving the question ... could lead to Living the Question if positioned adequately in time ... nonetheless the myth continues ... that limited people know everything regardless of how packaged of inde boite! Arboi? De Je vue ... work it as is oblivious!

 

[Waterfall]

I expect you to pontificate from biblical ignorance, but I'm appalled that Pastor Jim "likes" your biblically ignorant comments and thus demonstrates how superficially he studies the Gospels and their Greco-Roman background.
First, "nails" are driven through Jesus' "hands" (wrists) and would bleed profusely on the cross (John 20:25; confirmed by Luke 23:39 and Colossians 2:14).
Second, blood gushes out of His side when a Roman soldier pierces his side with a spear (John 19:34).
Third, the use of long nails was as a standard (if not exclusive) form of Roman crucifixion and archaeologists have unearthed the corpse of a man who was crucified in Jerusalem in Jesus' time with a 4 1/2 inch nail driven through his ankles.
Fourth, part of the routine crucifixion process is a floggins with the sharp metals of Roman flagellum. The Roman flogging reported in the Gospels, not to mention the crown of thorns, would already make Jesus bleed as He was being nailed to the cross.

A few years back I would have answered the same as you, but not now.
Sacrifice for the Jews was never to forgive sins, but to atone and perform a ritual that transcends beyond the physical to the spiritual.
We as Christian's seem to honour Jesus' suffering on the cross, but in truth a Jewish sacrifice of certain animals was performed quickly and humanely so the animal did not suffer greatly and died quickly. ( this is Kosher) Islam has similar food laws(Halal) Their sacrifices would sever the carotid and windpipe and death was fast.
Roman crucifixion is slow and agonizing, some people lasted days on the cross in tortuous agony. It is said Jesus died quicker than most, but even 4 to 6 hours is not a humane death. The wounds he suffered and bleeding were a "slow burn"
Jesus was physically killed by Roman's, most likely for the crime of sedition. Do I think he was still doing Gods will? Yes! Do I think his acts of purposely questioning some Roman laws was heroic? Yes
And I really dont see how believing this way denigrates anything good that Jesus did by dying on a Roman Cross to honour Gods teachings.

 

[jimkenney12]

A blood sacrifice usually involves the killing of the sacrificial animal by slicing its throat. The blood letting causes the death. In the synoptic gospels, water, not blood, poured from his side indicating he was already dead. Proving death in this way meant there was no need to break his legs as was rbe custom...

Yiu can cherry pick your verses and we can pick our verses.

Please let me know who Papias was and how his writings came to be known. I never heard of him before.

 

[Luce NDs]

In the abstract can it be imagined what we don't know?

it is not in the realm of the absolute to give into anything that could be conjured as fantasy and thus beyond the absolute.

Isn't that out there ... a bit knobby?

Thus extended virtue ... it wasn't welcome in the pres formed ... already cast!

Which is more diabolical an institution or something that can evolve and learn ... thus understanding word as it pas Cis ... if it comes it shall go!

 

[Waterfall]

Waterfall: Also, "No man, by any means can redeem his brother,or give to God a ransom for him."
Psalm 49:8 Basically everyone must be accountable for their own sins. You cannot transfer sins onto another.

How typical of progressives like you and Jim to rip a text out of its context and warp its meaning to suit your woke agenda.
Here is the NRSV's more accurate translation with the context included to clarify the meaning:
"No ransom avails for one's life, there is no price one can give to God for it. For the ransom of life is costly and can never suffice, that one should live on forever AND NEVER SEE THE GRAVE...THEIR GRAVES ARE THEIR HOMES FOREVER (49:7-9, 11).

The psalmist does not believe in life after death and is simply making the point poetically that no one can buy his way out of the inevitability and permanence of physical death. All commentaries on Psalms agree on this point. Unlike Mark 10:45, this psalm has nothing to do with vicarious atonement for the sins of others to ensure their eternal life after death.

My information on the passage was taken from "Jews For Judaism"

 

[Mystic]

Sacrifice for the Jews was never to forgive sins, but to atone and perform a ritual that transcends beyond the physical to the spiritual.

Your claim is refuted by 2 Maccabees 12:42-46:
"They prayed that the sin (Jewish idolatry) that had been committed would be wholly blotted out...He (Judas Maccabaeus) also took up a collection man by man, 2,000 drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering (for the dead idolaters)...Therefore, he made atonement for the dead that they might be delivered from their sin."

We as Christian's seem to honour Jesus' suffering on the cross,

That's because Jesus Himself identified His prolonged suffering on the cross as part of His atonement (Mark 8:31; 9:12; Luke 24:26, 46).

but in truth a Jewish sacrifice of certain animals was performed quickly and humanely so the animal did not suffer greatly and died quickly.

Irrelevant to Jesus' atoning sacrifice!

Waterfall: "The wounds he suffered and bleeding were a "slow burn""

Now you are contradicting your earlier claim that Jesus never bled on the cross.

I can demonstrate how reasonable Jesus' vicarious and substitutionary atonement are, but here I'm only concerned to demonstrate to guest viewers that you and Jim simply reject the NT teaching and the teaching of Jesus Himself on this matter.

 

[Mystic]

In the synoptic gospels, water, not blood, poured from his side indicating he was already dead.

No, the soldier's spearing is not mentioned in the Sunoptics. You need to actually read the text in John 19:34, which refutes your claim:
"One of the soldier pierced his side with a spear, and at once BLOOD and water came out (John 19:34)."

Yiu can cherry pick your verses and we can pick our verses.

First, you have no answer for my verses which refute your claims.
Second, I have refuted your claims about your verses and I challenge you to find a single academic book commentary on the Gospels that agrees with you.

Please let me know who Papias was and how his writings came to be known. I never heard of him before.

Papias (60-130 AD) was bishop of Hierapolis, which is near Laodicea, one of the seven churches addressed in the book of revelation. His book is lost but is preserved in fragments quoted by early church fathers like Eusebius, Irenaeus, and others.

 

[unsafe]

There are many Christian's, pastors, ministers, that dont believe in the blood atonement or substitutionary atonement theory, and they are reading the same words you are Mystic. Why do you think that is?

they call themselves Christian Pastors and Ministers but they are not true Christians -----there are many people using the term Christian but that does not mean that they are Christians ----

The Scripture clearly says that without the shedding of Blood there is no remission of sins ---just because people do not believer in this ---does not mean that sins are taken away by any other means -----the Scripture is clear on what takes away your sins -----people can say all they want to that that is not so ------but the scripture says it is so ------

 

[Luce NDs]

Admonishment of sin is a great business ...

 

[jimkenney12]

So you are using quotes by later writers of fragments of a book written at least 50 years after the death of Jesus to provide validity for Mark's gospel in terms of his quotes.

I believe every gospel was composed by an evangelist or team to tell a story about Jesus that met the needs of their community and their goals for evangelism.
I believe each of them had a mix of written documents, oral stories, and testimonies from people who encountered Jesus while he was alive and some who joined the early community.
The Gospel of John was clearly carefully composed with its carefully arranged miracles and I Am statements. It includes a sense of the author resenting Peter's role and the relation between Jesus and Mary Magdalene as well as hatred or spite for Jewish leaders. It has some beautiful poetry and stories where it is easy to feel present. And it feels more like fiction than history.

Now, regarding your ungrounded assumptions about my leadership. I am not sure if I should feel angry about the abusiveness of your comments or pity you for clinging to the stereotypes you have for preachers who do not share your beliefs instead of accepting that they might have the integrity and courage to preach in line with their beliefs.

Finally, regarding the home for unwed mothers. You never confirmed if it was really a home for unwed pregnant girls and women or a home for unwed mothers.

 

[Mystic]

So you are using quotes by later writers of fragments of a book written at least 50 years after the death of Jesus to provide validity for Mark's gospel in terms of his quotes.

First. no scholar disputes the authenticity of the Papias fragments that comment on Gospel origins.
Second, Papias is not transmitting written tradition; he is transmitting what 2 of Jesus' still living disciples are currently saying about Peter's role in the composition of Mark's eyewitness-based Gospel.
Third, Peter himself gratefully acknowledges Mark's missionary companion ship in 1 Peter 5:13.The Gospel of John was clearly carefully composed with its carefully arranged miracles and I Am statements. It includes a sense of the author resenting Peter's role and the relation between Jesus and Mary Magdalene as well as hatred or spite for Jewish leaders.

jimkenney12:
It (the Gospel of John) has some beautiful poetry and stories where it is easy to feel present. And it feels more like fiction than history.

You obviously have not read Cambridge professor C. H. Dodd's magisterial book, "History and Tradition in the Fourth Gospel," which carefully argues that the historical material in John is more historically accurate than its counterpart in the Synoptic Gospels.

Now, regarding your ungrounded assumptions about my leadership. .

Ungrounded? I expressed my belief that you did not confess to your congregations the full extent of your rejection of the authenticity of Jesus' sayings and you did not deny my charge. When the Gospel was read and preached by you, your congregation would naturally assume that you believed it was historically true, unless you said otherwise. I submit that they would have fled from your ministry had they known the full extent of your skepticism. So that is an obvious issue of integrity and authenticity.

 

[Luce NDs]

There is an old concept that power is corrupt ... involves monarchs, business and other strange powers ...

Is the edifice a great power that some hang onto to feel secure in their virtue; Mystic?

Some get really stoned on this belief system that can evolve into a huge mercinary business!

Consequence? Humble churches and surroundings ... disbelievable right, Mystic? Do such things grow into chimeral icons?

 

[Luce NDs]

The odd things one encounters when prying into the infinite abyss ... mentally emptying ... often affecting that spatial Zoan between the ears and the potential is blinding ...

 

[Luce NDs]

When caught in a situation of great power is it best to deny, deny, deny?

Could this accrue a great stack of lies that just stand there ...

Imagine if we just sit in a great sense of de Lucian about the counterside of the perversion! Would that be diabolical corn ... a' maise in ...

 

[BetteTheRed]

I am delighted to have three full days in which to respond to anything that Mystic has said with, "what an a**hole"...

 

[Luce NDs]

I am delighted to have three full days in which to respond to anything that Mystic has said with, "what an a**hole"...

Is ah 'ole like a void in the dear earth as mire? Sphincter; cat lying in the san ... wathching the little thing building piles ...

How the great mystery amuses his offspring as they floe ... id scappa thing ... seld scuttling device ... bodes poorly! Things do go down ...

Hard but requiring digestion, dis emmanation, etc. thus parts, peaces and other shards ... points of diappearance ... if flat it just goes round one way ...

Expect further dimensions ... someone said 33 degrees, 13 more than 20 steps in one gallow!

 

[Waterfall]

I am delighted to have three full days in which to respond to anything that Mystic has said with, "what an a**hole"...

Right up there with calling someone "a progressive" dont you think?

 

[BetteTheRed]

Right up there with calling someone "a progressive" dont you think?

Completely. Berserk has been an a**hole 24/7/365 ever since I first encountered him so many years ago on Wondercafe.

I'm gonna enjoy three (now only two) days of it. So far, it's sort of disappointing when it comes to enjoyment of the role, but I intend to give it a good college try.

 

[unsafe]

BetteTheRed said:
I am delighted to have three full days in which to respond to anything that Mystic has said with, "what an a**hole"...


OH Dear! -----Mystic ---- you have gone and done it- Now ---you've riled up the Big Honcho ---Look out Now ! your done for ----