Lets Talk about the Holy Spirit

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Mendalla said:
Why would God be necessary for there to be transendence? I don't find that empty at all. Transcendence is about the idea that existence is more than just what can know with our faculties. Strictly speaking, a multiverse (should there be such) transcends our universe and our universe transcends us both as individuals and as a species.

That's where spirit, if such exists, is to be found IMHO: In our experience of a reality bigger than ourselves. That needn't be supernatural, though. The complex universe (or multiverse if you buy into one of those hypotheses) is enough.
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And you seem to be describing a numinosity or a spiritual elevation when you describe knowing more even though something is beyond your faculties or ability.
 
Mendalla said:
Why would God be necessary for there to be transendence? I don't find that empty at all. Transcendence is about the idea that existence is more than just what can know with our faculties. Strictly speaking, a multiverse (should there be such) transcends our universe and our universe transcends us both as individuals and as a species.

That's where spirit, if such exists, is to be found IMHO: In our experience of a reality bigger than ourselves. That needn't be supernatural, though. The complex universe (or multiverse if you buy into one of those hypotheses) is enough.
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Belief in God and another world beyond this reality...and belief in multiverse, are not mutually exclusive. I believe in both. The idea that that is even possible - there must be a a life force behind it (which I would call God) is much more plausible than, “it came from nothing”. We do not and I don’t think we will ever even have the capacity, through science, to know everything. We are limited in our perceptions of reality and the tools we have to understand it scientifically. The flea does not understand its world through the perceptions of the elephant its life depends on and it never can. It just doesn’t have the capability - even if it manages to figure out that it exists on an elephant, or beyond that, that the elephant is in a larger space that the flea also exists in. But the flea doesn’t and cannot know what it doesn’t know. It only has a flea brain. Compared to the immensity and complexity of the universe and possible multiverses, we have flea brains.
 
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Is light a kind of essence from a dark place of mystery? It has a great gap to cross to get here ... taking one more than 7 minutes ... thus height and haughty concepts as it comes down! Transcending ... space-time? Kinda out-ve-here ...
 
Far too often our churches hold the view of God as an entity that sits far above our corrupted world and separate from our everyday social lives. We worship from "afar" or we will "find" Jesus and tuck him deep inside our heart.......so for me, the holy spirit is when we reveal what's not so easy to see from above and privatized inside of us, into the world. This hidden light is revealed through us by the holy spirit and becomes part of the world, much the same as Jesus did when he walked the earth. It is through us(God's disciples) that the holy spirit moves throughout the material world.
 
Kimmio Laughterlove said:
Belief in God and another world beyond this reality...and belief in multiverse, are not mutually exclusive. I believe in both.
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I didn't actually say they were mutually exclusive. In fact, I was responding to the suggestion that the two are linked, that one without the other is "empty". I believe in a bigger reality that we are connected to (the web of all existence of which we are a part in UU parlance). I do not currently believe in a personal deity, though I am not closed on the matter, either. An atheist agnostic if you like.
 
Is God Wisdom (intellectual) or love (emotional) or allowing us to escape the integral ... as total ... and thus sides and facets?

What can a cracked human make 've ID as a broken people?
 
Mendalla said:
I didn't actually say they were mutually exclusive. In fact, I was responding to the suggestion that the two are linked, that one without the other is "empty". I believe in a bigger reality that we are connected to (the web of all existence of which we are a part in UU parlance). I do not currently believe in a personal deity, though I am not closed on the matter, either. An atheist agnostic if you like.
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Suggest a massive relativity that the individualized would argue. Imagine these all gathering in heaven ... would be hell for one extreme!

Imagine heaven without borders and thus encompassing a bunch of small flames within the circle(s)!

An oli peon effect ...
 
Waterfall said:
I tend to remember Richard Hitchens agreeing that the Numinous (that's possibly a new word for you?) and transcendence do exist in his opinion, but he then went out of his way to explain why they had nothing to do with God or the supernatural........some of your arguments sound rather empty also.....
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You're thinking of Christopher Hitchens, and something can be numinous without having a personal deity attached to it. The feeling I get from emotional highs, awe-inspiring vistas and even mind-expanding concepts are not, for me, automatically connected to a god who really wants me to worship him like a needy girlfriend. I am capable of being overcome by the wonders of the world. I recommend it. I think this life has some amazing things to offer. To then cheapen them with some stab-in-the-dark explanation about a deity that created them is not helpful and not remotely likely to be correct.
 
Waterfall said:
And you seem to be describing a numinosity or a spiritual elevation when you describe knowing more even though something is beyond your faculties or ability.
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Some concepts are fascinating to ponder. The multiverse opens up infinite possibilities and paths for your brain to explore. It does not tell you what you can and can not do with your penis and on what day of the week you should eat fish. That stuff is mind-numbing, not mind expanding.

If you are awed by the concept of God, have at it. I'm awed standing at the top of Whistler Mountain. Some people are just cold.
 
chansen said:
You're thinking of Christopher Hitchens, and something can be numinous without having a personal deity attached to it. The feeling I get from emotional highs, awe-inspiring vistas and even mind-expanding concepts are not, for me, automatically connected to a god who really wants me to worship him like a needy girlfriend. I am capable of being overcome by the wonders of the world. I recommend it. I think this life has some amazing things to offer. To then cheapen them with some stab-in-the-dark explanation about a deity that created them is not helpful and not remotely likely to be correct.
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Thanks for the correction....I did mean Christopher Hitchens.
 
Does the Holy Spirit work among unbelievers and a fallen World ----that is a good question to think about for your sermon ------and you can find the answer in the Bible ------

Jesus Promised He would sent the Holy Spirit to convict the World concerning ----Sin ---Righteousness and Judgment ----John 16:8 -----


The Holy Spirit testifies of Christ pointing people to the Lord -----John 15:26


The Holy Spirit restrains sin and combats the power lawlessness in this world ---who is the anti Christ -----

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+2&version=NIV

2 Thessalonians 2 New International Version (NIV)
The Man of Lawlessness



So we see that the Holy Spirit plays a role in the world not just with believers ------but the Holy Spirit does not indwell unbelievers ------He works among unbelievers to hopefully point the way to Christ ------ some will accept and some will reject the pointing ------ we choose
 
Unsafe, if the Holy Spirit combats lawlessness among believers, then the HS is incompetent. We know the faithful are at least just as unlawful as the unfaithful. Find yourself a better ghost.
 
In the Old Testament sin was covered by the blood of animals and it was only for a time -----the Holy Spirit did not permanently indwell the God's Chosen of the Old Testament ---the Holy Spirit was selective and temporary ----scripture describes it as the Spirit came upon ----came over or rushed upon the person ------here are 2 examples

1 Samuel 16:12-13 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
12 So Jesse sent for him. He had a healthy complexion, attractive eyes, and a handsome appearance. The Lord said, “Go ahead, anoint him. He is the one.” 13 Samuel took the flask of olive oil and anointed David in the presence of his brothers. The Lord’s Spirit came over David and stayed with him from that day on. Then Samuel left for Ramah.


1 Samuel 10:10 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
10 When Saul came to the hill, a group of prophets came to meet him, and God’s Spirit came over him. He prophesied with them.


The permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit for believers happened only after Jesus died and was with His Father in heaven -----
 
chansen said:
If you are awed by the concept of God, have at it. I'm awed standing at the top of Whistler Mountain. Some people are just cold.
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What if Whistler Mountain was 'named' God Mountain ... could it still be awesome enough to 'inspire' you to put aside thoughts of the cold (and even perchance your penis) as you willingly engage in “the scientific art of remembering your true nature.” Are you inspired to blow up the mountain and convert it into 'money' or are you inspired to 'share' the goodness in the universe. After you take your turn down that mountain are you inspired to teach children to ski so they can grasp this exhilarating spark of life within themselves or do you sit them down and preach to them about how you and you alone have the 'ability' to experience it. As far as I understand it you want to share and teach as demonstrated by your actions. This I call the fruit of the 'holy' spirit ... for lack of a better terminology. As far as I am concerned the whole world is blessed by your willingness to 'teach' a child how to 'master' their own ability to experience that spark of life as 'awe-somely' as you do.

chansen said:
if the Holy Spirit combats lawlessness among believers, then the HS is incompetent. We know the faithful are at least just as unlawful as the unfaithful.
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As the story goes ...
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law!
 
So I think spirit is attainable without specific belief in a deity. It could be something more abstract like our sense of awe or connection to a greater reality or something transcendent without being "God"

But what about the "Holy" part? Can you have "Holy" without a deity to make it "Holy"? Is a universe that is in a constant state of creation and expansion, without a "God" behind it all, "Holy"?
 
Hebrew word for holy means the same as in Greek ----it means set apart for God's purpose -----Saints -----

Strong's Concordance
qadosh: sacred, holy

of God, as separate, apart, and so sacred, holy:

Holy One , one is holy , saints .


Greek ---

Strong's Concordance
hagios: sacred, holy

set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred.

40 hágios – properly, different (unlike), other ("otherness"), holy; for the believer, 40 (hágios) means "likeness of nature with the Lord" because "different from the world."

[40 (hágios) implies something "set apart" and therefore "different (distinguished/distinct)" – i.e. "other," because special to the Lord.
 
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