Thus the conflict continues as business concerns like such competition until they believe they are loosing ... leads to great belief that you can't lose and thus denial of truth! That winning creation ... god is thus humbled as out of sight!
John 21
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Thus the conflict continues as business concerns like such competition until they believe they are loosing ... leads to great belief that you can't lose and thus denial of truth! That winning creation ... god is thus humbled as out of sight!
paradox3
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Kinda reminds me of the certain young man in Mark who ran naked after Jesus.
Did Peter put on his clothes in this story? The version of the Bible I am using says he "tucked in his outer garment (for he had nothing on underneath it)"
How does one tuck in an outer garment? It all seems a little ambiguous to me.
paradox3
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No we don't. Some have theorized John, some have theorized Mary Magdalene. Does a careful reading of the text suggest either of these theories to you?
paradox3
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I am not sure Jesus ever told them to abandon their Jewish practices. Wasn't it more like he reinterpreted some of these things?
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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The move away from Judaism, as I have always heard it, was more Paul's doing as he focused on evangelism to the Gentiles. Jesus was a Jewish reformer, not someone trying to replace Judaism.
Though given that this is a late addition to a fairly late Gospel, maybe a return to Judaism from the faith promoted by Paul would fit?
NRSV is pretty clear that he was putting on clothes. Sounds like your version got a bit bowdlerized.
Given that this is supposed to be John, I would kind of go with that. I can't really see Mary joining the boys for a fishing trip.
I was thinking specifically of the Jewish practice not to evangelize. yet this is what Jesus wants them to do.
Not this text, but she does seem to know Jesus when she sees Him.
Never suggested he was encouraging them to move away from Judiasm, but is not the Great Commission, evangelizing,?
It's my understanding this is not a Jewish custom. Is it?
BetteTheRed
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Not recognizing Jesus until he does something (like accepting an invitation to eat on the Road to Emmaus) or says something ("Mary") or responds to something ("Teacher") is common in the risen Jesus, as is things like appearing in locked rooms and conjuring bbqs on the beach with pre-existing fish then asking for more. The "risen Jesus" is not a "regular human" Jesus in any way.
With no underlying fabrics and considering the Book of John being much about essence ... should this story be wrapped up?
Like that true man on the Streets of Laredo ... Vitruvian to be sure ...
I've been told by several theologians that they don't like the Truth (Gospel) of John as it is too spiritual in ah sense ... almost ethereal in natural form! Resulted in thin commissions as the physical portions departed and wasted away ... nothing left but Psyche which the authorities will deny as they do not like observers to what they do ...
Consider the news this morning on corruption in the CRA ... that was initiated pre Trudeau but I know authorities that blame everything on Trudeau as it is convenient and what happened before was not conserved in their system of memes!
As stated in some ancient beliefs ... to know anything one has to become non political even anti political and this is unlikely ... given how politicized the non learning church is! Yet some insist on hanging on ... latent applets? Sometime nothing applies to those uniquely and anonymously hatched out ... thus chic myths ...
The stuff folk fall for and blame it on emotions negating their mental processes ... love sick? It is commissioned as distraction from ... you know only too well after the present times of powers attempting to scorch the earth ... it amuses brute powers and may accept it as a norm! There may be latent risings if the integral gets ignited ... either row or Wade into the political nonsense searching pleasure in authority to do anything they will ... no inhibitions for nothing ... or political powers will declare you a loser!
Reciprocation is unseen due to blind conditions ... with such pumps recall that at some point the handle must come down ... even with a well head there are ups and downs! --- that woman; the Water Bearer!
Thoughts can depart in a fair breeze ...
Like that true man on the Streets of Laredo ... Vitruvian to be sure ...
I've been told by several theologians that they don't like the Truth (Gospel) of John as it is too spiritual in ah sense ... almost ethereal in natural form! Resulted in thin commissions as the physical portions departed and wasted away ... nothing left but Psyche which the authorities will deny as they do not like observers to what they do ...
Consider the news this morning on corruption in the CRA ... that was initiated pre Trudeau but I know authorities that blame everything on Trudeau as it is convenient and what happened before was not conserved in their system of memes!
As stated in some ancient beliefs ... to know anything one has to become non political even anti political and this is unlikely ... given how politicized the non learning church is! Yet some insist on hanging on ... latent applets? Sometime nothing applies to those uniquely and anonymously hatched out ... thus chic myths ...
The stuff folk fall for and blame it on emotions negating their mental processes ... love sick? It is commissioned as distraction from ... you know only too well after the present times of powers attempting to scorch the earth ... it amuses brute powers and may accept it as a norm! There may be latent risings if the integral gets ignited ... either row or Wade into the political nonsense searching pleasure in authority to do anything they will ... no inhibitions for nothing ... or political powers will declare you a loser!
Reciprocation is unseen due to blind conditions ... with such pumps recall that at some point the handle must come down ... even with a well head there are ups and downs! --- that woman; the Water Bearer!
Thoughts can depart in a fair breeze ...
Carolla
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It is a great story in this passage of scripture. I can't begin to guess at what motivated its addition.
To me some of the key themes or moments I take from it -
To me some of the key themes or moments I take from it -
- Jesus is inviting the fishers to do something differently - something they had not thought to try themselves, but pretty simple actually - to break from their routines & assumptions about the 'right way/only way/historic way' to do things.
- It was an invitation/suggestion - not a command - just a 'see what happens' curiosity kind of thing. And they did it. Are we sufficiently courageous in church to be curious? The unknown can be frightening.
- The suggestion seemed to be shouted from shore by some random guy (or so it seemed at the time) - not an expert fisher, or consultant - just a guy with an idea - and they listened. How do we in churches respond to new ideas/suggestions? Are we accepting? Do we give stuff a try in the psirit of experimentation, even when we may doubt? Do we miss the nudgings of Spirit who comes dressed as a random guy calling out from a misty shore?
- In their amazement at the catch, they immediately began counting & measuring! We humans do want to quantify things don't we? In church, what do we measure & then how do we define 'success or failure' via these measurements? Might we measure differently to give a sense of abundance & hope rather than scarcity & fear?
- Despite the record catch, the nets held! The 'original container' was not destroyed by trying something different. Do we resist experimenting because we fear 'our nets' (ie churches) will not hold?
The first point suggests change ... is this possible in established institutions? expect fluid seepage ...
paradox3
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Yes it's a great passage with many themes to explore. You have highlighted some good ones!
What does abortive polity mean? Ask Susan Collins about the faith she had in matters that may have been uncertain ... yet some will say it was predetermined and well SET! The spell is cast and some have no second thoughts about it because it could make the authorities look bad ... a less than expected appearance ...
What does one do when caught in the goods with bad intentions? Prostitution is well ... laid out as ... lying there ...
Does the relate to Canadians? We are isolated and autonomous right ... like where do Mulroney and Harper reside? Does position say something ...
Thus I depart from the alter reality ... the great unknown! Few grasp as an ethereal concept ... a complexity for those demanding simplicity! May be thin domain ... thus cleared of materialism!
That's the spirit ...
What does one do when caught in the goods with bad intentions? Prostitution is well ... laid out as ... lying there ...
Does the relate to Canadians? We are isolated and autonomous right ... like where do Mulroney and Harper reside? Does position say something ...
Thus I depart from the alter reality ... the great unknown! Few grasp as an ethereal concept ... a complexity for those demanding simplicity! May be thin domain ... thus cleared of materialism!
That's the spirit ...
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Imho, it was added for 3 reasons:
(1) The author/editor knew he had omitted Jesus' Galilean resurrection appearance.
(2) Jesus' 3fold question to Peter, one for each denial, is intended to rehabilitate his role as the key apostle. But this story of a walking Peter is awkwardly connected to the story of breakfast with Jesus and is thought by many scholars to have originally described Jesus' initial appearance to Peter in Jerusalem, the more natural occasion for his rehabilitation. Remember, Paul tells us that Jesus first appeared to Peter (1 Cor. 15:3-153 is a triangular number. Does it have a special meaning here?
(3) Jim Kenney: ".153 is a triangular number. Does it have a special meaning here?"
The editor wanted to convey the Gospel's place of origin through the gematria of the 153 fish. The numerical equivalent of the Hebrew letters for "Pella" add up to 153. Similar gematria is used in another Johannine work, Revelation, where the numerical equivalent of "emperor Nero" in Hebrew adds up to "666," the mark of the beast. When Nero was exiled, he was rumored to be trying to return to regain his throne. Yet he was rumored to have died. But Christians feared that Satan would raise him up, or a like-minded figure, to continue exterminating Christians. 2nd century Pellan literature (the Ascents of James) is unique in its early identification of the Holy Spirit as the ParacleThe charcoal fire and the threefold reputation of, "Peter, do you love me?" links to the denial of Jesus by Peter. In spite of messing up, Peter is still expected to continue serving the mission. Messing up our work or role does not block us from continuing to serve.
Many scholars believe that the Gospel's form prior to the addition of chap. 21 is our earliest. Gospel Cambridge scholar, C. H. Dodd () argues that. where John overlaps with the Synoptic Gospels, it is earler and more accurate or precise in its details.
Then how doe one explain a living gospel that does not evolve ... leaving a mass feeling stiffed by leadership that doesn't know the beginning either except by hard speculation ... knowledgeable addendum? Then the initial didn't wish us to know the virtual initiate ... thus the void ... leaving many agape ... scattered nothings?
Consider a KISS off ...
jimkenney12
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I am surprised that some scholars believe the first twenty chapters are the oldest Gospel. At the time the scriptures were written, they did not come with chapters and verses.
Duh, when scholars comment on the meaning of the accounts in John 21, they are not presuming that John broke his Gospel up into chapters. Rather, they are using the convention of chapter and verses to help readers precisely locate the text.
btw, the Gospel of Peter contains another version of the resurrection appearance preserved in John 21:1-7,but only the first part of the story has textually suvived.The claim that the Gospel originally ends at chap. 20 is based on the author's implication that he could write up many more "signs" in his Gospel as if he were bringing his Gospel to a close (20:30) only to proceed with yet another unexpected resurrection appearance with the sign of a miraculous catch of fish.
unsafe
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this is an interesting read
This amazing miracle involving 153 was performed by Jesus, after his resurrection from the dead, in his next to last appearance with his eleven disciples before ascending into heaven.
The miracle of fishes took place on Jesus' eighth of nine post-resurrection appearances. It began when Peter decided he wanted to go back to his pre-conversion job of being a fisherman (John 21:2 - 3). Upon hearing his plans, several of the other disciples went with him to fish on the Sea of Tiberias (Sea of Galilee). The men fish for an entire night and catch nothing.
In the morning, a man on the shore (they did not know it was Jesus) yells to them and asks if they caught anything. They answer no. They are then told to drop their net on the right side of the ship. When they try to bring the net out of the water, it is so full of fish that it requires being dragged to the shore! The disciples now realize it was Jesus talking to them. On shore, Peter counts a total number of 153 'great fish' in the net.
Symbolizing abundance, 153 can even represent an overflow blessing from God. The Bible states the disciples marvelled at the fact that their net held together even though it contained so many large fish (John 21:11)!
Additionally, the catching of 153 fish happened only after Christ became involved in the work. This is a subtle (or perhaps not so subtle!) reminder that without Christ the disciples' (and any believer's) attempts to accomplish something great on their own will fail, but that with Jesus all things are possible (John 15:5).
Lastly, the 153 fishes is reminiscent of a previously abundant catch Peter, Andrew, James and John experienced when they were first called to follow Christ and become fishers of men (and not food). Given the disciples were trying to go back to their pre-conversion employment when the miracle occurred, it likely reminded them that they now worked for God whose will it still was for them to catch men and not fish.
The book of Mark records Christ, on three occasions, personally blessed three people. These events were the healing of a man with an unclean spirit (Mark 1:23), healing a man who was deaf (Mark 7:32) and making whole another who was blind (Mark 8:22).
Matthew, however, writes that on 23 occasions Jesus blessed a total of 47 people. Some of those whom he blessed included a leper (Matthew 8:2), a non-Israelite woman and her daughter (Matthew 15:22), Mary Magdalene (Matthew 27:56) and Joseph of Arimathaea (Matthew 27:57).
Luke writes that on 14 occasions 94 people were blessed. They include the seventy disciples sent out to preach and heal (Luke 10:1), ten lepers cleansed at the same time (Luke 17:12) and Zaccheus (Luke 19:2).
Lastly, the apostle John bears record of eight incidents where nine people were helped by Jesus. Nicodemus (John 3:1), the woman accused of adultery (John 8:11) and Lazarus (John 11) are among those personally touched by the Savior of mankind. All told, the Lord directly blessed one hundred fifty three people in forty-eight separate incidents!
Meaning of the Number 153 in the Bible
What does the miraculous catch of 153 fishes symbolize? How does the number one hundred fifty-three relate to personal blessings?
www.biblestudy.org
The Meaning of Numbers: The Number 153
The meaning of the number 153 centers around the New Testament event sometimes referred to as the miraculous draught or catch of fishes (John 21:1 - 11). It is only mentioned in the Gospel of John.This amazing miracle involving 153 was performed by Jesus, after his resurrection from the dead, in his next to last appearance with his eleven disciples before ascending into heaven.
The miracle of fishes took place on Jesus' eighth of nine post-resurrection appearances. It began when Peter decided he wanted to go back to his pre-conversion job of being a fisherman (John 21:2 - 3). Upon hearing his plans, several of the other disciples went with him to fish on the Sea of Tiberias (Sea of Galilee). The men fish for an entire night and catch nothing.
In the morning, a man on the shore (they did not know it was Jesus) yells to them and asks if they caught anything. They answer no. They are then told to drop their net on the right side of the ship. When they try to bring the net out of the water, it is so full of fish that it requires being dragged to the shore! The disciples now realize it was Jesus talking to them. On shore, Peter counts a total number of 153 'great fish' in the net.
Symbolizing abundance, 153 can even represent an overflow blessing from God. The Bible states the disciples marvelled at the fact that their net held together even though it contained so many large fish (John 21:11)!
Additionally, the catching of 153 fish happened only after Christ became involved in the work. This is a subtle (or perhaps not so subtle!) reminder that without Christ the disciples' (and any believer's) attempts to accomplish something great on their own will fail, but that with Jesus all things are possible (John 15:5).
Lastly, the 153 fishes is reminiscent of a previously abundant catch Peter, Andrew, James and John experienced when they were first called to follow Christ and become fishers of men (and not food). Given the disciples were trying to go back to their pre-conversion employment when the miracle occurred, it likely reminded them that they now worked for God whose will it still was for them to catch men and not fish.
Speculation regarding the number
Jerome, the fourth century A.D. Catholic priest and theologian, theorized that the 153 fishes caught by the disciples represented all the species of fish. He then stated its meaning is that there was enough room within the church for all the "races" of man (Biblical Numerology, chapter 6). Augustine also believed that this fish miracle represented all kinds of men being saved by the gospel "net."153 personal blessings
We discover something quite interesting about the number 153 when we look at how many people, in the Gospel accounts, Jesus personally blessed.The book of Mark records Christ, on three occasions, personally blessed three people. These events were the healing of a man with an unclean spirit (Mark 1:23), healing a man who was deaf (Mark 7:32) and making whole another who was blind (Mark 8:22).
Matthew, however, writes that on 23 occasions Jesus blessed a total of 47 people. Some of those whom he blessed included a leper (Matthew 8:2), a non-Israelite woman and her daughter (Matthew 15:22), Mary Magdalene (Matthew 27:56) and Joseph of Arimathaea (Matthew 27:57).
Luke writes that on 14 occasions 94 people were blessed. They include the seventy disciples sent out to preach and heal (Luke 10:1), ten lepers cleansed at the same time (Luke 17:12) and Zaccheus (Luke 19:2).
Lastly, the apostle John bears record of eight incidents where nine people were helped by Jesus. Nicodemus (John 3:1), the woman accused of adultery (John 8:11) and Lazarus (John 11) are among those personally touched by the Savior of mankind. All told, the Lord directly blessed one hundred fifty three people in forty-eight separate incidents!
Additional info on Biblical Meaning of 153
The addition of all the numbers from 1 to 17 (1 + 2 + 3 + 4, etc. including 17) is equal to 153. This mysterious result is also the product of 9 x 17. If we add the individual digits (1 + 5 + 3) we end up with 9. If we add the cube of each of the individual digits (1 x 1 x 1) + (5 x 5 x 5) + (3 x 3 x 3), the result is 1 plus 125 plus 27 or 153
unsafe
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notice to the number 3 being used ---Jesus ask Peter 3 times if he Loved--(Agape-)--Him
Why did He ask Peter 3 times -----
There are 27 books in the New Testament, which is 3 squared, or completeness to the third power.
Jesus prayed three times in the Garden of Gethsemane before His arrest. He was placed on the cross at the 3rd hour of the day (9 a.m.) and died at the 9th hour. There were 3 hours of darkness that covered the land while Jesus was suffering on the cross from the 6th hour to the 9th hour. This is the number of resurrection. Christ was dead for three full days and nights, a total of 72 hours, before being resurrected on Saturday, April 8, just before sunset.
The apostle Paul was an exceptionally well-educated person. In three different occasions he quotes directly from Greek poets (Acts 17:28, 1Corinthians 15:33 and Titus 1:12). He also was privileged to visit the location of God's throne, which is in the third heaven (2Corinthians 12:2 - 4).
The three words that appear only once in Scripture are Reverend (Psalms 111:9), Eternity (Isaiah 57:15) and Grandmother (2Timothy 1:5).
Only 3 people were allowed to ask God anything. They were Solomon (1Kings 3:5), Ahaz (Isaiah 7:11) and, of course, Jesus Christ (Psalm 2:9). The gifts given to Israel by God were his law, the land of their inheritance, and their calling (the world to come).
The Bible only mentions the name of three angels (Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer).
The second mention of sex-related sins is in 1Corinthians 5:1 - 13, where the apostle Paul had to deal with the local church allowing open incest to be committed. The third sex issue dealt with in the New Testament is in Revelation 2:19 - 25. A female who considers herself a prophetess within the Thyatira church, in the spirit of Jezebel, was teaching believers to commit sexual immorality and spiritual adultery.
A triple threat of unclean spirits will be allowed to deceive the whole world to fight the returning Jesus Christ in what is called the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 16:13 - 16). The New Jerusalem, created by God for placement on a new earth, will be shaped like a square with 3 gates on each side (Revelation 21:13).
There are 3 great periods of God's annual Feast days of worship. They are the spring festivals (Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread), the summer festival (Pentecost) and the fall festivals (Feast of Trumpets, Atonement and Feast of Tabernacles)
Why did He ask Peter 3 times -----
The Meaning of Numbers: The Number 3
The number 3 conveys the meaning of completeness, though to a lesser degree than 7. It appears 467 times in God's word. It derives its symbolism from the fact that it is the first of four spiritually perfect numerals (the others being 7, 10 and 12). The 3 righteous patriarchs before the flood were Abel, Enoch and Noah. After the deluge, there was the three righteous "fathers" of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (later renamed Israel).There are 27 books in the New Testament, which is 3 squared, or completeness to the third power.
Jesus prayed three times in the Garden of Gethsemane before His arrest. He was placed on the cross at the 3rd hour of the day (9 a.m.) and died at the 9th hour. There were 3 hours of darkness that covered the land while Jesus was suffering on the cross from the 6th hour to the 9th hour. This is the number of resurrection. Christ was dead for three full days and nights, a total of 72 hours, before being resurrected on Saturday, April 8, just before sunset.
Appearances of the number three
Only three individuals witnessed Jesus' transfiguration on Mount Hermon. Those who saw Jesus' glory on the mount were John, Peter and James.The apostle Paul was an exceptionally well-educated person. In three different occasions he quotes directly from Greek poets (Acts 17:28, 1Corinthians 15:33 and Titus 1:12). He also was privileged to visit the location of God's throne, which is in the third heaven (2Corinthians 12:2 - 4).
The three words that appear only once in Scripture are Reverend (Psalms 111:9), Eternity (Isaiah 57:15) and Grandmother (2Timothy 1:5).
Only 3 people were allowed to ask God anything. They were Solomon (1Kings 3:5), Ahaz (Isaiah 7:11) and, of course, Jesus Christ (Psalm 2:9). The gifts given to Israel by God were his law, the land of their inheritance, and their calling (the world to come).
The Bible only mentions the name of three angels (Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer).
Number 3 and sex sins
There are 3 places in the New Testament where sex sins are specially referenced. The first is in Romans 1:20 - 32, where certain people who reject God are given over to defile themselves in a variety of ways that includes homosexuality (male and female) and overall sexual immorality.The second mention of sex-related sins is in 1Corinthians 5:1 - 13, where the apostle Paul had to deal with the local church allowing open incest to be committed. The third sex issue dealt with in the New Testament is in Revelation 2:19 - 25. A female who considers herself a prophetess within the Thyatira church, in the spirit of Jezebel, was teaching believers to commit sexual immorality and spiritual adultery.
Three in Prophecy
Next to seven, 3 is the most common referenced number in Revelation. An angel is charged to cry three woes to those who live on earth to warn them of more trials to come (Revelation 8:13). The murdered bodies of the Two Witnesses will not be buried. They will be exposed for all to see in Jerusalem for three days before they are resurrected.A triple threat of unclean spirits will be allowed to deceive the whole world to fight the returning Jesus Christ in what is called the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 16:13 - 16). The New Jerusalem, created by God for placement on a new earth, will be shaped like a square with 3 gates on each side (Revelation 21:13).
Additional info on Biblical Meaning of 3
God is described, in the very beginning of the book of Revelation, as a Being with the three fold characteristic, "which is, and which was, and which is to come" (Revelation 1:4).There are 3 great periods of God's annual Feast days of worship. They are the spring festivals (Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread), the summer festival (Pentecost) and the fall festivals (Feast of Trumpets, Atonement and Feast of Tabernacles)