In Defense of Doubt

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There are more than one truth IMO and one of them can be faith based.
I am not even sure what this means. On metaphysical questions, I would agree but qualify that by saying that the "truth" is subjective and personal and part of growing spiritually must to be admit and accept that.

In the physical universe, no. Truth in the this realm is testable and if something cannot be tested, it is not a valid hypothesis. God created the universe is not testable and does not even fit in with the tested hypotheses we have. We don't based our knowledge of how the universe works on faith in the 21st century. We test it with observations and experiments.

Spiritual growth is an imagined concept. So of course we differ.
As said there is actual truth (reality) and the one you wish was true. (spiritual growth)
Define "spiritual growth". For this agnostic ape, it means developing a sense of one's place in the Cosmos and building relationships to it and other beings. Whether that "spiritual growth" involves God (or other metaphysics) or not is wholly up to the individual. It need not be required. It's just that we don't usually use the term "spiritual" when religious beliefs are not involved, substituting "personal growth" or "social development" or something.
 
I am not even sure what this means. On metaphysical questions, I would agree but qualify that by saying that the "truth" is subjective and personal and part of growing spiritually must to be admit and accept that.

In the physical universe, no. Truth in the this realm is testable and if something cannot be tested, it is not a valid hypothesis. God created the universe is not testable and does not even fit in with the tested hypotheses we have. We don't based our knowledge of how the universe works on faith in the 21st century. We test it with observations and experiments.
You call it metaphysical, which is your language, but I guess I see it as feminine.....everyone has this side to them and it is up to us to tap into it. Truth in this regards is subjective and speaks to us personally sometimes, as you say and it is up to every individual to purposely walk into it, IMO. I find it interesting in the Bible that it is often women and sometimes children that point out things that others don't see.
 
Define "spiritual growth". For this agnostic ape, it means developing a sense of one's place in the Cosmos and building relationships to it and other beings. Whether that "spiritual growth" involves God (or other metaphysics) or not is wholly up to the individual. It need not be required. It's just that we don't usually use the term "spiritual" when religious beliefs are not involved, substituting "personal growth" or "social development" or something.
Religious beliefs, just seem to be the glue that point towards spirituality for me...otherwise it would "melt" into other categories when it deserves it's own.
 
You call it metaphysical, which is your language, but I guess I see it as feminine.....everyone has this side to them and it is up to us to tap into it. Truth in this regards is subjective and speaks to us personally sometimes, as you say and it is up to every individual to purposely walk into it, IMO. I find it interesting in the Bible that it is often women and sometimes children that point out things that others don't see.
But I would say that doubt and questioning have to be brought to bear on this. We cannot always trust our intuitions. We still need to ask "does this make sense" and "why am I thinking/feeling this" sometimes. Think of people who get into relationships based on "they seem right" only to have things go sour.

Religious beliefs, just seem to be the glue that point towards spirituality for me...otherwise it would "melt" into other categories when it deserves it's own.
One can be spiritual without a belief in anything supernatural or metaphysical, IMHO. Maybe that is still "religious" but it certainly is not what most would mean by "religious".
 
In the physical universe, no. Truth in the this realm is testable and if something cannot be tested, it is not a valid hypothesis.
SOrt of. As long as all are using the same base platform. 1+1=2 is true. 1+1=10 is also true. Both can be tested and both are valid. But they are using a different grounding/method (in this case of counting).

Maybe Obi-Wan was more accurate than we would like to admit when his ghost told Luke that many of the truths we hold to depend largely on our point of view. And yes that is generally in the realm of metaphysics and philosophy rather than "facts".
 
SOrt of. As long as all are using the same base platform. 1+1=2 is true. 1+1=10 is also true. Both can be tested and both are valid. But they are using a different grounding/method (in this case of counting).
That's not a subjective element. That's a matter of making sure you specify your parameters. As long as you're in base2 1+1=10 is objective truth and if you convert that to base10, it will always convert to 1+1=2.
 
That's not a subjective element. That's a matter of making sure you specify your parameters. As long as you're in base2 1+1=10 is objective truth and if you convert that to base10, it will always convert to 1+1=2.
Agreed....but are we always clear about our parameters? Are we always ready to admit others may be using different parameters?
 
Agreed....but are we always clear about our parameters? Are we always ready to admit others may be using different parameters?
In math and science, it's required to get published. In everyday life, not so much, eh. And some things in everyday life don't have clear, easily defined parameters as we have in math and science, which is where things like one's beliefs and values come in.
 
Should I trot out my favorite piece on doubt and faith again? Probably. The writer was a UU and the piece appears as a reading in the UU hymn and service book Singing the Living Tradition.

Robert T. Weston said:
Cherish your doubts, for doubt is the handmaiden of truth.
Doubt is the key to the door of knowledge; it is the servant of discovery.
A belief which may not be questioned binds us to error,
for there is incompleteness and imperfection in every belief.
Doubt is the touchstone of truth; it is an acid which eats away the false.
Let no man fear for the truth, that doubt may consume it;
for doubt is a testing of belief.
The truth stands boldly and unafraid; it is not shaken by the testing;
For truth, if it be truth, arises from each testing stronger, more secure.
He that would silence doubt is filled with fear;
the house of his spirit is built on shifting sands.
But he that fears no doubt, and knows its use, is founded on a rock.
He shall walk in the light of growing knowledge;
the work of his hands shall endure.
Therefore let us not fear doubt, but let us rejoice in its help:
It is to the wise as a staff to the blind; doubt is the handmaiden of truth.
 
I think doubt can be a positive. It can lead to investigation and that can lead to answers

but it can also lead to hesitancy and reluctance to make decisions. The whole “maybe I am wrong.......”.

we need to have questions, but we also need to have confidence to make decisions. And know that some decisions will be wrong
 
As to the other statement above, for me spirituality is a reality because I witness an effect without actually knowing what it is......just like you ( and all of us) witness gravity without knowing what it is
Poor comparison. Gravity can be demonstrated, not so spirituality.
Define "spiritual growth". For this agnostic ape, it means developing a sense of one's place in the Cosmos and building relationships to it and other beings. Whether that "spiritual growth" involves God (or other metaphysics) or not is wholly up to the individual. It need not be required. It's just that we don't usually use the term "spiritual" when religious beliefs are not involved, substituting "personal growth" or "social development" or something.
I think my statement still stand regardless of whether we call it personal or spiritual etc.
I never said spiritual was solely to do with religion, I just pointed out it was an imagined subjective concept as is personal or whatever else you wish to call it.
What about growth in character?
See above reply to Mendalla.
 
I think doubt can be a positive. It can lead to investigation and that can lead to answers

but it can also lead to hesitancy and reluctance to make decisions. The whole “maybe I am wrong.......”.

we need to have questions, but we also need to have confidence to make decisions. And know that some decisions will be wrong
At the same time, having doubts about those decisions can also lead to better decisions and no decision should be immune to questions. But there definitely needs to be a point where you "pull the trigger" or you get into paralysis by analysis.

However, that's not really what we are applying doubt to, here. We are talking about the faith in the unseen and untestable, not about making a business or personal decision. Those decisions can generally can be supported with facts and shareable past experience. Faith in God or an afterlife is generally not supported by facts but is largely based on personal inclinations and experiences that are not really shareable. There is no way to prove one way or the other so leaving room for doubt keeps us from devaluing the beliefs and faith of others while still maintaining our own. It gives us wiggle room that says "I may be no more right that anyone else on this matter."
 
I think my statement still stand regardless of whether we call it personal or spiritual etc.
I never said spiritual was solely to do with religion, I just pointed out it was an imagined subjective concept as is personal or whatever else you wish to call it.
So you argue that there is no change or development in personality once you are born? That it is all determined either genetically or in utero? Because that's what personal growth is. Positive, helpful, useful changes in personality.
 
Poor comparison. Gravity can be demonstrated, not so spirituality.
Of course it can be demonstrated by it's effects, but can you tell me what gravity is? Even a physicist will not be able to tell you. Einstein said it doesn't exist.
So, to me it's a good comparison.
 
So you argue that there is no change or development in personality once you are born? That it is all determined either genetically or in utero? Because that's what personal growth is. Positive, helpful, useful changes in personality.
I don't disagree. However, it is all subjective is it not. Personal/spiritual is not tangible. Whereas what is true/facts must be.
 
Of course it can be demonstrated by it's effects, but can you tell me what gravity is? Even a physicist will not be able to tell you. Einstein said it doesn't exist.
So, to me it's a good comparison.
Einstein said it is not a force, but a distortion of space-time, not that it didn't exist. And not all physicists agree with him even today. A unified theory that includes gravity will likely need to treat it as a force and one of the proofs of said theory would be finding a "graviton" (particle of gravity).

However, there is no doubt that objects move towards the center of a large mass like a planet. Try dropping something on the floor. What is in doubt is the explanation for how it works. Newton and Einstein each moved us down that path. It is possible we will move down it again someday.
 
Of course it can be demonstrated by it's effects, but can you tell me what gravity is? Even a physicist will not be able to tell you. Einstein said it doesn't exist.
So, to me it's a good comparison.
No still a poor comparison. Sorry. Because there are no effects from the spiritual. Except for your special pleading.
 
Einstein said it is not a force, but a distortion of space-time, not that it didn't exist. And not all physicists agree with him even today. A unified theory that includes gravity will likely need to treat it as a force and one of the proofs of said theory would be finding a "graviton" (particle of gravity).

However, there is no doubt that objects move towards the center of a large mass like a planet. Try dropping something on the floor. What is in doubt is the explanation for how it works. Newton and Einstein each moved us down that path. It is possible we will move down it again someday.
So basically, like I said, we don't know what gravity is but we can see the effect......;much like I can see or feel an effect from spirituality or others can.
 
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