How well do we know each other on WC2?

[Luce NDs]

Wow, he must be expecting really long wait times.

Some ideas are persuasive about patience ... for people just are in the dark about understanding complexity ... that's a vast hyperbole ... considering the metaphors for alternate understanding ( a dark idea, mostly what's unknown)> Aaorn erased some of my posts because of references to black as he called them denigrating ... containing the word is used negressimo an ancient medico word! How many understand the real problems of medi-sin ... disinterest and corporate lack of caring about what they do ... a spreading Shadow sometimes known as Deus ...

God almighty can one say such things in a corporate world of capitalizing on everything to control ... what? Ideas ... don't let them escape ... but they do due to poor grip ... one would need a whole host of psychologists in the form of social work and the occupations you could be enslaved too because of enforced naïveté ... is that stew PID? I do believe we know little ... a small point from which we go forth to deal with mistakes ... human avarice? It appears to turn in on itself ... non-cognizant lyre ... harping away on myths ... a straying psyche!

Like the winds of love ... it may come and go ... and observantly ... we don't know the reason ... and don't even question anything anymore as long as tyrants give us some information which we can choose to accept or not ...

Is life crazy?

 

[Luce NDs]

Is craziness like a bouquet ... of lost sapiens, a parallel to sentience, or an upstanding tower of information ... ET?

Perhaps just another metaphor going through redaction ... so people won't know ... the main goal ... it covers for the Leis ... a floating flower ...

 

[revsdd]

Logistically the problem was in trying to set protocols for members who do not care to serve the church but rather believe it exists to serve them.

...

I believe that Emerging Spirit, had it landed in a more selfless denomination would have accomplished more than it did for the UCCAN.

Can't argue with either of those points, and they are the basis for my criticism of Emerging Spirit. It was created out of a disconnect between the national church that designed it and the local church that would presumably benefit from it. It reflected the great divide between the people in the pews and the people involved in governance - which sometimes even exists between those in the pews and those involved in local governance in congregations. We can come up with all the great ideas in the world, but if the people in the pews won't buy into them they're pointless.

 

[paradox3]

Too bad such a major initiative did not work out better.

 

[BetteTheRed]

No. We invite people into our midst, then expect THEM to adapt to OUR systems/ethos/values.

P3, agree with you re the values, at times, anyway. However, my point stands that we expect those we welcome to automatically buy into the way we worship/sing/gather instead of inviting them to add their ideas.

 

[paradox3]

P3, agree with you re the values, at times, anyway. However, my point stands that we expect those we welcome to automatically buy into the way we worship/sing/gather instead of inviting them to add their ideas.

Yeah, I see what you mean. They are probably expected to join the Worship Committee if they want to add their ideas.

 

[paradox3]

Can't argue with either of those points, and they are the basis for my criticism of Emerging Spirit. It was created out of a disconnect between the national church that designed it and the local church that would presumably benefit from it. It reflected the great divide between the people in the pews and the people involved in governance - which sometimes even exists between those in the pews and those involved in local governance in congregations. We can come up with all the great ideas in the world, but if the people in the pews won't buy into them they're pointless.

Re: the disconnect. Some church members were offended by the way the magazine ads portrayed the denomination. Not sure how common this reaction might have been but I definitely heard it expressed.

 

[KayTheCurler]

I heard that too. Also complaints that 'they' had no right to publicly declare what UC members thought and believed on sensitive topics. A typical disconnect between managers and others.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Re: the disconnect. Some church members were offended by the way the magazine ads portrayed the denomination. Not sure how common this reaction might have been but I definitely heard it expressed.

Yes, hard to identify with "emerging spirit" when those within the pews don't see anything different 'emerging' and would rather not, thank you. Memorial hymn sing and all that...

 

[paradox3]

Rev James Murray commented on the original WC than we entered into Emerging Spirit without contemplating the principles of emergence. Anyone remember this?

 

[paradox3]

Maybe RJM said without "embracing" the principles of emergence. Hard to remember exactly but that was the gist of it.

 

[revsdd]

The basic problem with the magazine ads especially was that they portrayed a United Church that perhaps existed in the minds of a lot of denominational leaders but that didn't exist in practice at the local congregational level. We may be a theologically liberal and open minded and diverse denomination but in practice at the congregational level we are very conservative in that we don't like to change the way things are done - a problem not restricted to the United Church, but perhaps made more egregious for the United Church by the expectation that MIGHT have been set up by the ads. I say "MIGHT" because I don't think anyone really knows how many people decided to check out a local United Church because of the ad campaign. I know of one person, who came, got very involved for a while, and then left for a different congregation because of a dispute with another member.

This past Advent/Christmas we tried some outreach to the local community. Beautifully designed cards (designed by a graphic artist who's connected with the church and donated her time and work) that simply told a bit about the congregation and the services we'd be having through the season. Had them delivered to local postal codes by Canada Post. We had some nibbles as a result of them, but no wave of people coming through our doors.

We struggle to come up with programs and ideas and campaigns to get people into the church, but we're up against something I saw a few years ago in a survey. Can't remember who did the survey or the exact numbers, but it suggested that the vast majority of people who don't attend church won't start to attend church no matter what we do to try to attract them. They simply aren't interested in church. They might have interest in God or spiritual things, but not church. So the trick for the church is to figure out a way to meet people outside the building. How do we build relationships in the community without trying to "sell" church attendance? And that's hard to do for a denomination that's very steeped in traditions and buildings and practices.

 

[paradox3]

My daughter and son-in-law have attended church a couple of times in the past year. Two things surprised me.

1. They felt welcome but were overwhelmed by the attention they received as a young couple in church.

2. They attended a congregation which has a lot of lay involvement in its worship service. They disliked this aspect of the service & would have liked to hear more from the minister.

 

[paradox3]

So the trick for the church is to figure out a way to meet people outside the building. How do we build relationships in the community without trying to "sell" church attendance?

I see this as a real paradigm shift. Our denomination seems to be assuming everyone has made this shift already. I am not so sure.

 

[chansen]

I still think you need to steal the people who are going to stupid churches. The attraction is you're a church where checking your brain at the door is not a requirement. Seriously - that's your best shot. Maybe get someone to word it differently, but that's the angle you should exploit.

You're trying to change people's Sunday habits. That won't happen. Change which place they go to on Sunday.

 

[revsdd]

1. They felt welcome but were overwhelmed by the attention they received as a young couple in church.

That screams desperation. We want you for what you're going to bring to us (namely - kids! And a couple of people without grey hair!) rather than for what we actually have to offer you.

2. They attended a congregation which has a lot of lay involvement in its worship service. They disliked this aspect of the service & would have liked to hear more from the minister.

Most of our lay involvement in worship is for the sake of the lay people already in the congregation. Whether it works for visitors or to attract others is questionable.

When I read Scripture, for example (which I don't very often because we have lay people sign up to do it) I try to put a lot of passion into it. I emphasize certain words or verses. I try to reflect the feelings of the authors of or the speakers in the text. Some lay people are very good at that; others not so much. Many lay readers (even though I speak to them about the reading beforehand) just read in a monotone, stumble over words or phrases. And then I've known some lay people who want to read Scripture who seem to want to show off how much they know, so they'll offer a long introduction dealing with the history and context and authorship, etc. I applaud their desire to research, but that's not really why people come to church. (It's a joke often made about preachers but I once had a lay reader who liked to talk about the original Greek or Hebrew as they introduced the passage.) And, admittedly, some ordained people aren't great readers either. But the reality of the modern world is that to be at all attractive we have to do what we do very well to make it appealing to people. There are some people who simply don't read well, but who like to read nonetheless. And you don't want to say no to them and hurt their feelings. But it is a problem sometimes.

 

[paradox3]

This particular congregation has a lot more lay involvement than simply reading scripture. There is basically a lay presider over the service although this person really just reads what he or she has been given by the minister. My daughter remarked that the minister didn't even speak until half an hour into the service.

 

[paradox3]

There are some people who simply don't read well, but who like to read nonetheless. And you don't want to say no to them and hurt their feelings. But it is a problem sometimes.

Have seen this play out a few times.

 

[revsdd]

This particular congregation has a lot more lay involvement than simply reading scripture. There is basically a lay presider over the service although this person really just reads what he or she has been given by the minister. My daughter remarked that the minister didn't even speak until half an hour into the service.

I understood that you were saying that there was a lot of lay involvement. I was using Scripture reading as an example. I was just saying that whatever the nature of the lay involvement is, it's important that it be done well.

 

[paradox3]

I understood that you were saying that there was a lot of lay involvement. I was using Scripture reading as an example. I was just saying that whatever the nature of the lay involvement is, it's important that it be done well.

Okay. Got it.