How does one "choose" a Belief System?

[Luce NDs]

Jean Calvin was a Roman Catholic. Through study of scripture he, like other Reformers, took issue with traditional Roman Doctrines.

Most of the early Calvinists were products of the Reformers most heavily influenced by Calvin and his students Theodore De Beza and John Knox.

The first Generation of the Protestant Churches chose that over Roman Catholicism.

No Knox myths?

 

[revjohn]

A person who agrees with only 4 points of the Calvinist TULIP (Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, Perseverance of the saints). All those whom I have known have not agreed with the L.

It is also known as Aymraldism. It replaces Limited Atonement with Hypothetical Universalism.

Justifying Unconditional Election by saying Christ died for the Elect and any who would choose Christ.

It is an attempt to have Arminianism (free will choice effects salvation) without having to accept that if salvation was an act of free will all could theoretically reject Christ and render his atoning work useless.

 

[Luce NDs]

It is also known as Aymraldism. It replaces Limited Atonement with Hypothetical Universalism.

Justifying Unconditional Election by saying Christ died for the Elect and any who would choose Christ.

It is an attempt to have Arminianism (free will choice effects salvation) without having to accept that if salvation was an act of free will all could theoretically reject Christ and render his atoning work useless.

Allowing a soul to remain in state of naïveté? Does this cause ignoring of parts ...

 

[crazyheart]

Where is @chanson . He would enjoy this discussion.

 

[Mendalla]

He's on a break. I imagine he'll be back someday.

 

[Ritafee]

Yes, I understand (and agree with) what you are saying about lived experience.

Our belief systems can help us make sense of transcendent experience.

Transcendental experience is holistic - like the theory of everything experienced not explained - why would I want to divide it into parts to be analyzed or broken down into a belief system - trying to name it takes you right away from it has been my experience.

 

[Mendalla]

Transcendental experience is holistic - like the theory of everything experienced not explained - why would I want to divide it into parts to be analyzed or broken down into a belief system - trying to name it takes you right away from it has been my experience.

As Lao Tzu said:

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao;
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.

Strictly speaking, though, even that statement is your belief.

 

[Ritafee]

Loosely speaking, the continual use of statement qualifiers is very tiresome. Forgive my unbelief.

 

[paradox3]

It is also known as Aymraldism. It replaces Limited Atonement with Hypothetical Universalism.

Justifying Unconditional Election by saying Christ died for the Elect and any who would choose Christ.

It is an attempt to have Arminianism (free will choice effects salvation) without having to accept that if salvation was an act of free will all could theoretically reject Christ and render his atoning work useless.

So how did you wind up with Calvinism as your BS?

 

[paradox3]

He's on a break. I imagine he'll be back someday.

Come to think of it we haven't seen him in a while.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I don't think it's brainwashing. @Pavlos Maros Not deliberately, at least, in my case. As I said, I personally accept that "faith" exists somewhere between reality and imagination and I'm okay with that because I think both are important - and whether I chose Christianity as a framework that works, or it chose me, again is a matter of faith, which exists between reality and imagination. I also don't think we know as much as we think we know about consciousness - but I do think humanity would not have achieved anything helpful without collective imagination driven by good conscience. Again, for me Christianity provides a framework for that that works. In the past 7 or 8 years I have been on a journey, learned about all kinds of theology - by choice, nobody forced me to - and settled on agape love being the most important element of the whole Christian message - and path to justice - and what Christ represents. I don't particularly mind if others value the same thing, without identifying as Christians. But I see why following Jesus' Way makes sense. There's nothing magic about it, yet it's magical - once you see it you can't unsee it. But I'm not going to say you have to find it important too. I do wish atheists would spend less time criticizing and more time finding common ground with Christians though.

Also, are we not all "brainwashed" in our cultures and families to believe some elements of the way we live and what we've learned is "right"? And sometimes it is.

 

[BetteTheRed]

But I see why following Jesus' Way makes sense. There's nothing magic about it, yet it's magical - once you see it you can't unsee it.

It's like AA. The 12 steps are sorta sensible, and once you've figured out that you and some kind of substance have an "unhealthy relationship", you never un-see that.

I have "flirted with Jesus" my whole life. I am quite certain he was just a man, a great prophet, yet I'm also sure that he was pointing to a Way of non-violence that Humanity will always need.

 

[revjohn]

So how did you wind up with Calvinism as your BS?

Family of Origin was Presbyterian. When mom and dad split I was 5 and we had just moved across town. Back then women were typically held responsible for marital failure so taking us to the family church just didn't work.

I wound up in a United Church through scouting. Methodist prior to Union it never seemed to swing too far Presbyterian and most theology was pretty Arminian.

Through study I was beginning to find Arminianism untenable. Too many holes in the logic which also appeared to contradict scripture.

I received my call to ministry and was hunting for a University. A friend suggested Redeemer University College down the road and they accepted me.

That was where I was formally introduced to Calvin via The Institutes if the Christian Religion and it was in Calvin's theology that I found support for the ideas I was coming to in my own study. They were certainly articulated better than I was able and there was other stuff I never I never got around to contemplating that struck me as far more sensible than Arminianism and insistence on a free will.

I'm still UCCAN though more favourable to Calvinist understandings of our articles of faith.

 

[BetteTheRed]

All of this, though, pre-supposes some "belief" in "god", which many of us find completely and totally a challenge.

 

[BetteTheRed]

So, my BS is nothing. I "believe" in absolutely nothing. I have been convinced, somehow, by one wyrd dream, that "everything will be okay". I had a foundational encounter, via an Anya Seton novel, with Julian of Norwich, a 14th century mystic, who is the "all will be well" meme generator.

Beyond that, I believe that a person named Jesus existed in real history. I do not get John, the Trinity concept. My BS is totally sketchy, totally does not include any sort of afterlife beliefs.

 

[KayTheCurler]

I never said as much Kay. You're of course free to make that your faith statement.

Why would I want to use that as my faith statement? It is just something someone said long ago that made me chuckle.

 

[Jaebius]

Why would I want to use that as my faith statement? It is just something someone said long ago that made me chuckle.

You seemed to me to be suggesting that it's my faith statement - which it is not.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

I don't think it's brainwashing.

If you don't like the term brainwashing. Should I use program, indoctrinate, inculcate, propagandize, condition, cajole, instill, persuade, implant, convince, influence.

@Pavlos Maros Not deliberately, at least, in my case.

Sorry it is always deliberate, because it is the brainwashed doing the brainwashing. They know no better.

As I said, I personally accept that "faith" exists somewhere between reality and imagination and I'm okay with that because I think both are important - and whether I chose Christianity as a framework that works, or it chose me, again is a matter of faith, which exists between reality and imagination.

First faith has zero basis in reality so there cant be a between, sorry. And are you seriously trying to say that when you were a baby/toddler/small child you could personally chose a belief in god let alone a faith?

I also don't think we know as much as we think we know about consciousness - but I do think humanity would not have achieved anything helpful without collective imagination driven by good conscience.

But that has nothing to do with faith, religion or the belief in a god.

Again, for me Christianity provides a framework for that that works.

No it doesn't, it's the opposite in fact. Faith, religion, the belief in god kills more people than it ever helps.

In the past 7 or 8 years I have been on a journey, learned about all kinds of theology - by choice, nobody forced me to - and settled on agape love being the most important element of the whole Christian message - and path to justice - and what Christ represents. I don't particularly mind if others value the same thing, without identifying as Christians. But I see why following Jesus' Way makes sense.

Lets go back in time to the 1970s with a hypothetical. If jesus came to you in a vision. a vision where you absolutely knew it was him and he told you to go to your friend Johns house and in an act of love and mercy, kill him, (For he shall reside with jesus forever, and you would want the best for your friend John wouldn't you.) Because he is suffering badly from smallpox. Would you do it. Or would you disobey your lord and savior.

There's nothing magic about it, yet it's magical - once you see it you can't unsee it.

But you can, many people have deprogrammed themselves and left christianity.

But I'm not going to say you have to find it important too.

I wouldn't I not a dreamer.

I do wish atheists would spend less time criticizing and more time finding common ground with Christians though.

Stating fact is not criticizing. Explain what common ground there could be.
Religions kill people, atheism doesn't it couldn't be any less common.

Also, are we not all "brainwashed" in our cultures and families to believe some elements of the way we live and what we've learned is "right"? And sometimes it is.

Only if you wish to class an educate as brainwashing. Though if it is in a religious school then it is reinforcing the brainwashing.
As for culture most people I know, are humans first and hold no allegiance to any country or creed. I was born in england and I live in england but that's as far as it goes. I do hold an allegiance to my family and friends. and will protect those to the best of my ability.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

If you don't like the term brainwashing. Should I use program, indoctrinate, inculcate, propagandize, condition, cajole, instill, persuade, implant, convince, influence. Sorry it is always deliberate, because it is the brainwashed doing the brainwashing. They know no better.First faith has zero basis in reality so there cant be a between, sorry. And are you seriously trying to say that when you were a baby/toddler/small child you could personally chose a belief in god let alone a faith?But that has nothing to do with faith, religion or the belief in a god.No it doesn't, it's the opposite in fact. Faith, religion, the belief in god kills more people than it ever helps.Lets go back in time to the 1970s with a hypothetical. If jesus came to you in a vision. a vision where you absolutely knew it was him and he told you to go to your friend Johns house and in an act of love and mercy, kill him, (For he shall reside with jesus forever, and you would want the best for your friend John wouldn't you.) Because he is suffering badly from smallpox. Would you do it. Or would you disobey your lord and savior. But you can, many people have deprogrammed themselves and left christianity.I wouldn't I not a dreamer.Stating fact is not criticizing. Explain what common ground there could be.
Religions kill people, atheism doesn't it couldn't be any less common.Only if you wish to class an educate as brainwashing. Though if it is in a religious school then it is reinforcing the brainwashing.
As for culture most people I know, are humans first and hold no allegiance to any country or creed. I was born in england and I live in england but that's as far as it goes. I do hold an allegiance to my family and friends. and will protect those to the best of my ability.

When I was a baby, I didn't have the capacity to "believe in anything" because I didn't have the developed mental capacity, to process an idea and consciously determine whether or not I believe in it - like all babies. Not God, not democracy, not education, not peace, not justice, not nutrition, not exercise....on and on and on. But, maybe infants have the most "faith", that they will be taken care of even if they can't know (and even when, sadly, many are not, in this world) - they don't question their existence and their need to be fed. They don't know how or why because they cannot. It just is. Whatever happens, just is. They are defenceless and live in a state of faith, you could say. not religious faith, but a state of faith. As they grow up - in every culture - they learn about dangers, and are educated about what cultural ideas and institutions they must follow to protect themselves and others from those dangers in order to live a long and hopefully not too difficult life - and maybe extend that hope beyond themselves and their families. What is learned about how to achieve that often turns out to be wrong in hindsight - and it changes course - but it's not just religion doing the brainwashing. And religion also can change course.

I wrote in another thread, about church today (yesterday, at this hour). My pastor spends a lot of time with thoughtful sermons trying to deprogram former evangelical fundamentalists and point them to more open minded, less literal, theological perspectives. Today he explicitly said, "Jesus' most important commandments were love God and, like unto it, Love your neighbour. Since we can't 'see' God, logically, we should love our neighbour." Maybe, we could just find common ground there?

 

[revjohn]

All of this, though, pre-supposes some "belief" in "god", which many of us find completely and totally a challenge.

Revsdd has shared a number of times that he began atheist. That would defeat the God pre-supposition. He isn't alone in that move.

And then there are those who leave theism for atheism.

Choices made in both of those moves.