Jobam
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Great read for discussion. ‘Gone by 2040’: Why some religions are declining in Canada faster than ever - National | Globalnews.ca
Gone by 2040
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Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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I thought about posting that, too, but I'm a bit tired of the subject. Yeah, the news is not great for a lot of Christianity and, to be honest, I suspect other faiths are mostly being fed by immigration and could see declines if that slows down and their younger generations raised here drift away. My son is unchurched and his partner is Muslim so that likely means they are exemplary of where their generation is headed. And only one of my generation of my extended family is still active in a Christian church, though my nephews still remain active in their denomination so far (one married a PK, even).
And happy new year, @Jobam! Nice to see you. Hope all is well with you.
And happy new year, @Jobam! Nice to see you. Hope all is well with you.
revjohn
Well-Known Member
The Church is an anvil which has worn out many hammers.
Congregations are not the Church they are at best pieces of the Church.
Congregations exploded under the heyday of Christendom. That heyday has ended.
Uncomfortably we are called to consider the parable of the sower.
Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and they sprang up quickly, since they had no depth of soil. 6 But when the sun rose, they were scorched; and since they had no root, they withered away. --Matthew 13: 5 can be read as predicting the phenomenon.
It isn't anything we should celebrate.
It shouldn't be something that surprises us greatly.
I am currently serving a congregation in the oldest surviving Church building that The United Church of Canada has in St. John's NL. In two years time, if we survive we will celebrate 150 years of ministry together. In that time we birthed two daughter congregations, both have pre-deceased us.
There is no reason why we could not survive. It would require some sacrifices that I don't think the congregation is prepared to make.
The first is that a giant 150 year old building is something of an Albatros about your neck. We are working at changing our culture and it may be that we are simply too late to make that change as a congregation. We could take that lesson to other congregations if we choose to disband.
Covid-19 has hurried us into a place of choosing.
Congregations are not the Church they are at best pieces of the Church.
Congregations exploded under the heyday of Christendom. That heyday has ended.
Uncomfortably we are called to consider the parable of the sower.
Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and they sprang up quickly, since they had no depth of soil. 6 But when the sun rose, they were scorched; and since they had no root, they withered away. --Matthew 13: 5 can be read as predicting the phenomenon.
It isn't anything we should celebrate.
It shouldn't be something that surprises us greatly.
I am currently serving a congregation in the oldest surviving Church building that The United Church of Canada has in St. John's NL. In two years time, if we survive we will celebrate 150 years of ministry together. In that time we birthed two daughter congregations, both have pre-deceased us.
There is no reason why we could not survive. It would require some sacrifices that I don't think the congregation is prepared to make.
The first is that a giant 150 year old building is something of an Albatros about your neck. We are working at changing our culture and it may be that we are simply too late to make that change as a congregation. We could take that lesson to other congregations if we choose to disband.
Covid-19 has hurried us into a place of choosing.
In how many gatherings has the building become an albatross as a icon of something lost and departed ... social responsibility ... i.e. acceptance of the entire thing bumps, warts and all ... chapel in the moonlight?
Who hasn't declared; "it is not my fault" as a remnant of the serendipity item and thus we need relaxation, song and dance among many other things to speak of ... said the Wahl Ruse ... the virtue cannot be stood ... understand?
Yet in spots old time considerations erupt ... neighbourly caring without the baggage ...
Jobam
Well-Known Member
I am just going off the top of my head - no edits....
My background is a small rural United Church. Very family/community orientated. The "families" are dying out and not a big local population to help feed/populate the congregation. My next UC of choice would be 80k away (one way).
I see the older folks (and yes, I am there now too....) tired, not everyone on zoom, and missing community.
We have a church that can accommodate 200. Before COVID, we had maybe 20 people attending. We are in a cluster of four churches and were sharing one Minister.
There is a big difference between city and rural churches. People can come and go much easier in a city church.
Our countries demographics are changing, as mentioned above,
My background is a small rural United Church. Very family/community orientated. The "families" are dying out and not a big local population to help feed/populate the congregation. My next UC of choice would be 80k away (one way).
I see the older folks (and yes, I am there now too....) tired, not everyone on zoom, and missing community.
We have a church that can accommodate 200. Before COVID, we had maybe 20 people attending. We are in a cluster of four churches and were sharing one Minister.
There is a big difference between city and rural churches. People can come and go much easier in a city church.
Our countries demographics are changing, as mentioned above,
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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Mrs. M and I were rather amused when the government announced that worship services would be limited to 50%, or even 25%, capacity. I don't think we've been in a service, other than Christmas Eve, at the various United Churches we've looked at that was much more than the 50%, and often closer to the 25%. It's not like church sanctuaries were especially crowded to start with, in other words.
As lovely as those old churches are, some are going to have to go. Hopefully, other uses can be found for them. Metropolitan here in London is already being used heavily as a concert facility (London Symphonia, our current orchestra, uses it for some of their concerts for instance) so that's one possible future for larger, centrally located churches. You could even keep the organ for that.
The UUs here in London don't have a traditional church building, but an old club (I think it was the Yugoslav-Canadian club, which fell apart along with Yugoslavia) with a nice, big commercial kitchen and some side rooms. Probably a better model in the 21st century that an old school church because they can rent it out for almost anything. We often had couples have both the wedding and the reception right in the hall when I was there.
jimkenney12
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Sounds like a painful situation. I did interim ministry for two years for a much younger congregation, about 104 years old that had started three congregations. Two of those are still going. It started to grow again while I was there and it grew for about two more years before conflict between new leaders and the old guard blew up, the new leaders left, and the congregation closed three years later.
The willingness to put mission ahead of comfort and familiarity is rare but necessary. I wish you and them well.
And what divides the house .... excessive passions?
Says something for calmer passions ...
Yet we are still taught to get sensational for the sake of being in the light ... go figure that in the terms of mercy, justice and humility ... does pride allow balance? Imagine a declared chosen folk as winners! A literary twist ...
Says something for calmer passions ...
Yet we are still taught to get sensational for the sake of being in the light ... go figure that in the terms of mercy, justice and humility ... does pride allow balance? Imagine a declared chosen folk as winners! A literary twist ...
In short ... if excessive profits are not moderated ... in a few years what will be left of ground zero ... and the consequences to that above them?
Yet what is the goal by the well drilled in extortion? I'm told I should say things like that ... higher arches don't favour criticality ....
Yet what is the goal by the well drilled in extortion? I'm told I should say things like that ... higher arches don't favour criticality ....
BetteTheRed
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I am frightened by this. I am frightened that my congregation that will be one that will not survive. There are four UCCs within City limits, and it's obvious to me that this is too many. The downtown, oldest church, with the marvelous acoustics (host of the local orchestra), and the rabbit warren of meeting rooms (used by various Scouting and AA-type groups) will probably survive. One congregation serves the entire south end, so it should be fine. However, there are two congregations in the NE part, one of them newer, and which sits in a much younger demographic area. We have "better" space for community engagement (a great kitchen, for instance), but many fewer children.
Maybe one could become a shelter eventually?
jimkenney12
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Maybe it is time to assess the congregation's assets in terms of property, people, brand, commitment, hopes, and dreams along with trends in the community, possible impacts of trends in the wider world that could affect the community, and then imagine how the congregation could succeed at being faithful to its values and faith in the community that might be in ten to twenty years. This is not an easy process. I did interim ministry in an aging congregation in a community where old houses were being replaced by in-fills and older couples and singles were being replaced by young couples and families with higher professional incomes. A couple young families became engaged and the church started to grow. They went from no Sunday School to between 10 and 20 children in their Sunday program under the next minister. They were at the beginning of possibility of becoming a robust instead of dying congregation. But it made some old leaders uncomfortable and a conflict mortally wounded the congregation. Where a community has mostly older people now will become a community of young families in a few years time. The community that is mostly young families now will become a community of empty nesters in twenty years. Know where you are now and build for the future.
If being a congregation serving Christ's mission now and in the future is important enough to a congregation, it can thrive. Look to where you want to go, not at the churches in the ditches.
If there are enough members like you who care about the mission of the church, the congregation has a future. That future will probably look very different from what it is now.
Mendalla
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As a church, though, or as a community centre/theatre/concert hall like I was talking about? The building could carry on in that role without being a church.
Again, I think we need to separate the "church" from the building. The church could carry on in a smaller space, even rented space, and let someone else manage the building. Heck, sell the building to someone like the orchestra or city who will operate it as a theater or community space and then rent it back for a couple hours on Sunday mornings. If people would start thinking like that, maybe more congregations would survive in a smaller, more manageable form. But maintaining a classic church building with a shrinking group is going to lead to disaster.
The first Christian churches met in homes, for heaven's sake. There is no requirement for big, fancy buildings to be a church. A simple hall with a piano could be enough for Sundays. In fact, one could argue that the big fancy buildings are not Christianity, they are Christendom.
The church is not a building
The church is not a steeple,
The church is not a resting place,
The church is a PEOPLE.
So why not dump the building, dump the steeple, and focus on the PEOPLE? Did not some dude once say, "For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them."? No mention of a building of any form there.
I dont know if this has any relevance or not, but I dont think alot of the younger crowd knows what to do in a church that kneels, sits, sings hymns, knows where to turn in the Bible, recites something after the minister, when to bow ones head, etc....it would be like all of us walking into a Jewish synagogue or Mosque.
What I've noticed with the churches that are filled with young people is that the format is simple....coffee and snacks before and after services, singing, announcements, more singing, a sermon....done!
No hymn books, Bibles at pews but not necessary,.... because it's all projected.
This is the youth today....some may love the traditional, but it looks to me, many young people like the easily understood service which is easy to become a part of, with the "meat" in the sermon and songs that literally move them.
Do any Church Shoppers ever check out the churches that draw in the young in droves to observe what's going on? (If anyone is wondering where their churches young people have gone)
What I've noticed with the churches that are filled with young people is that the format is simple....coffee and snacks before and after services, singing, announcements, more singing, a sermon....done!
No hymn books, Bibles at pews but not necessary,.... because it's all projected.
This is the youth today....some may love the traditional, but it looks to me, many young people like the easily understood service which is easy to become a part of, with the "meat" in the sermon and songs that literally move them.
Do any Church Shoppers ever check out the churches that draw in the young in droves to observe what's going on? (If anyone is wondering where their churches young people have gone)
KayTheCurler
Well-Known Member
I saw that my congregation was in need of some change way back in the 60's. I watched as the local young people were made unwelcome and as major efforts went into building a new edifice.
Twenty some years ago I watched someone weep as they realised their congregation (Anglican) was dying. Church based activities were mostly fundraising for building maintenance. This becoming increasingly difficult as members aged and died. The person was mourning the possibility that there wouldn't be a congregation to give her a proper funeral. She decided to attend the UC instead.
Now this congregation is also getting smaller.
Twenty some years ago I watched someone weep as they realised their congregation (Anglican) was dying. Church based activities were mostly fundraising for building maintenance. This becoming increasingly difficult as members aged and died. The person was mourning the possibility that there wouldn't be a congregation to give her a proper funeral. She decided to attend the UC instead.
Now this congregation is also getting smaller.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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I don't because when I visit the websites of many of them, it is often apparent that my various heresies (unitarianism and universalism are both generally frowned upon in much of the Christian world still) would be quite unwelcome and they are often less than welcoming to LGBTQ+ as well. At this point, I can't see myself attending or joining a church that is not welcoming to gender and sexual minorities, no matter how attractive the services are to young people. Really, the mainline and progressive churches who are "affirming" or whatever you want to call it need to up their game on the attracting young people front or the face of Christianity going forward is going to be exclusion, which will drive the overall numbers for Christianity down further as excluded groups and their allies are unable to find a church that fits both their spiritual needs and their values.
Mendalla
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I knew a lesbian who ended up choosing them over UU but I haven't seen her in eons. I've never checked out the one here and I had heard that they were actually fairly conservative theologically, even if progressive socially so was never sure I wanted to.