Expansion of MAID delayed until after next election

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Kimmio, you're doing it to yourself. People have clearly stated they agree with you on many points. We have said we admire your passion for the subject and even understand as much as we are able. Unfortunately, no one agrees with you 100% so, now you think people are against you.

I hope you can take a short break and regroup. You're participation is valued here.
 
Kimmio Laughterlove said:
The true personality of this place rears its head. Puts me in a bind of 19 pages of discussion ruined. Thanks.

Thanks for your not understanding. I don’t need this ruining my day or my year.
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You posted that source. Chansen questioned it. That's what a discussion forum is about. Moderation is not about retroactively changing someone's posting record. Own what you posted and either defend it or acknowledge the problematic nature of the source and find another one that supports your case.
 
I clearly do not want my opinion about MAiD convoluted by other opinions that don’t represent me. Yes, I own my mistake. That’s why I asked for that post to be taken down. I don’t think it’s unreasonable, I think your decision is. You’re leaving it up is cruel under the circumstances. Discrimination, even.

Like I said I don’t want this ruining all my efforts so don’t cancel my account. I want record if MAiD policy goes south, this is the best people here could do.
 
Kimmio Laughterlove said:
I clearly do not want my opinion about MAiD convoluted by other opinions that don’t represent me. Yes, I own my mistake. That’s why I asked for that post to be taken down. I don’t think it’s unreasonable, I think your decision is.
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Deleting your mistake is not owning it, it's covering it up. No forum I am on would delete a post that had been responded to unless it violated a rule. Owning it means saying you made a mistake, distancing yourself from the inappropriate source, and presenting a new source to support your position. And, yes, supporting chansen's critiques of the MLI would be part of that.
 
Mendalla said:
Deleting your mistake is not owning it, it's covering it up. No forum I am on would delete a post that had been responded to unless it violated a rule. Owning it means saying you made a mistake, distancing yourself from the inappropriate source, and presenting a new source to support your position. And, yes, supporting chansen's critiques of the MLI would be part of that.
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Covering up what? An error only a few people had a chance to read that I admitted was an error and clearly stated why I don’t want it there - it doesn’t represent me. It was my hasty error - ADHD not my credibility - There’s a reason I need to edit so much, too.

Leave it there but it doesn’t represent me. There are pages of information that chansen ruined. You’re doing a poor job of representing basic courtesy and accommodation. Clearly people here don’t care much about this subject and my purpose for posting here, or you’d delete that post. You care more about letting chansen be chansen than letting me be me.

He could apologize for tearing me down like that. He won’t.

I do support chansen’s opinion of MLI but not his dirty tactics of calling out my credibility because of that one (less than an hour old when noted) source error that I was clear I don’t want there. And making me defend myself just looks worse. On all of us. I have to do it because of chansen but I just look foolish either way.

You’re representing yourselves accurately. You look like heavy handed jerks who haven’t learned a thing about disability concerns in this world and why we’re in danger. A million good points, and one error post that someone uses to tank someone. And that reflects the broader attitude perfectly: If you’re a square peg you can’t have a voice. Or maybe not even a life.

If you’re not cruel, do better.
 
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Kimmio Laughterlove said:
You’re going to let @chansen get away with tripping me up to question my credibility. Okay.
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I did not trip you up. You brought that link here yourself, with no involvement from me, seemingly suggesting they were legit and a sound source that backed you up. Meanwhile, you had no idea who they were. I pointed out that MLI are a bunch of anti-trans public broadcasting haters, and only then did you take a look and realize I was right.

The best thing you can do, and the worst thing you can do to MLI, is to follow up and note how they do not represent you or your values. Which you did. Hiding your mistake hides what MLI is about, which they'd prefer.

I hope you don't leave. I hope you learn to accept that WC2 agrees with maybe 80% of your position, and not take that to mean we're your enemies.
 
Like I said, some opponents to MAiD policies feel like they have to publish their views anywhere that will - and sometimes you’ll find the same learned and credible people publishing on both sides of the aisle. Because MAiD itself is a non partisan issue despite the efforts to make it partisan. They want everybody to hear it not just people who agree with them on other issues. This is the issue they’re working on. They stand by it no matter where it’s printed. They want to untangle it from partisan politics because it’s really a human rights issue - more specifically disability rights issue because the whole expansion pivoted on “disability” mention.

I can’t take that approach here and I didn’t mean to. I resent chansen’s opportunism in making it a gotcha when @chansen, you know me enough to know I don’t support MLI’s other issues. You could’ve pointed out “that doesn’t seem like a source you’d support” and support me in correcting my error the way that makes sense for my own credibility and worth instead of trashing it. You know I put my heart and soul into it, it’s not just any discussion thread, or I wouldn’t react so strongly. But you said what you said and left me to climb out of a hole, or dig one. I think you knew it would upset me and you relish the reaction. Either way it wasn’t to be helpful. And people supporting you to behave like that is just as unhelpful. I don’t appreciate that.
 
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Kimmio Laughterlove said:
Like I said, some opponents to MAiD policies feel like they have to publish their views anywhere that will - and sometimes you’ll find the same learned and credible people publishing on both sides of the aisle. Because MAiD itself is a non partisan issue despite the efforts to make it partisan. They want everybody to hear it not just people who agree with them on other issues. This is the issue they’re working on. They stand by it no matter where it’s printed. They want to untangle it from partisan politics because it’s really a human rights issue - more specifically disability rights issue because the whole expansion pivoted on “disability” mention.
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I don't see how that's a problem unless you believe only certain views can be expressed in certain places.
 
I did a quick cursory look at MLI. I know one the authors of the article to be credible - and they have clout to post confidently wherever they want because they truly are experts on this and they stand by the same position everywhere they speak - and I was going by that. I wasn’t aware of MLIs other views or recent controversy or I personally wouldn’t have posted that article from that source.
 
And…I should know about MLI because they’re a big think tank and if I ever knew what they stood for, I forgot. I guess I just haven’t paid attention to them as a source of anything. So that is also my error. I’m owning that.
 
Kimmio Laughterlove said:
My personal opinion, which I haven’t discussed with anyone else recently and haven’t seen it anywhere for years - is that Track 1 with good safeguards is the only “healthcare” that should be privatized. Income test it in the opposite direction that marginalized people always get income tested - and make those who have assets over the poverty line pay for it on a sliding scale so that the “duty to die” doesn’t keep falling on poor people. That would be a safeguard - make people who want to check out months or years early pay a tidy sum for it and put a decent set portion of that money back into health, palliative and hospice, and social services and housing. And for people who don’t have money to pay for it, make sure that all the other choices exist and are being tried. Public health shouldn’t be touching MAiD. Not only is it dangerous at this juncture for it to be available in nearly all hospitals as a “choice” that leaves people vulnerable to coercion, it’s not healthcare. It’s not even “end of life care” unless a person is literally at the very end, pain is uncontrollable, and they are about to die (with few exceptions). That’s what it was initially about. Removing the criminal charge for doctors who overdose patients as they’re actively acutely dying and begging to be let go. The common argument was that it wasn’t fair in those cases for doctors to face murder charges and I agree with that specific argument. But MAiD means literally killing people and that’s not medicine’s job. It’s not healthcare. That’s my personal opinion. MAiD is not about health it’s about death. Privatizing Track 1 MAiD could level the playing field.

And still eliminate Track 2 altogether.
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Nobody else thinks this, necessarily @JayneWonders only me. Solely my idea as far as I know. There could be others but I wouldn’t know who. But why not? What do multimillionaires really have to lose by paying a decent fee for their own chosen deaths if it goes back into public health? More money needs to go to public health to save lives, no doubt, so why not? MAID isn’t healthcare no matter how it’s spun. It just isn’t. Especially when spoken of as “treatment for illness”…that’s bloody horrifying and echoes dark history. It doesn’t belong in healthcare because it’s too dangerous and open to exploitation and corruption. Keep it separate and keep a close eye on it - which would be easier to monitor if was separate and not lied about (omitted) on death certificates because that’s what the certain province requires. It obscures the stats. If it was governed separately it would be more honest. If people paid for it and money was diverted back to health and social welfare the risk wouldn’t be as bad for marginalized people. That’s my own opinion and it’s not happening so don’t worry about it.
 
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Does anyone ever talk to anyone outside of here about this topic and/ or bring up any of the better points I may have made about it, to others? Have you pointed anyone to any articles? Passed them on? Talked to church members? Friends? Family? Have you ever tried to change anyone’s mind that still thinks the way you did before your mind was changed with new information (especially track 2)? Just wondering. I’d like to think it’s not a waste of time but if it just stops with you and you don’t take any action at all in spreading the word then I probably shouldn’t bother anymore because this particular topic isn’t just an interesting subject it is the thing happening in Canada I care most about. I have long felt that we desperately need the mainstream to understand what’s going on and have their support - even moreso because of the nature of how it all unfolded. And with track 2 being passed during COVID - that was the immediate major concern - opportunity was lost for disabled people to really be out there and organize and protest at the necessary moment etc. But I feel strongly we need the mainstream to recognize the concerns are real and give their active support. To me, most people here are pretty solidly mainstream politically. Except one or two it’s mostly progressive/ liberal middle class - a decent cross section of Canada, geographically. Just a fact, I mean nothing else by that. But speaking in pollster terms you are a good “sample” lol. You’re also people. Friends. Acquaintances. Sometimes frenemies lol but it’s not worth holding a grudge when that happens.

This isn’t me being upset anymore - but the upset got me asking myself what I’m doing and if it makes any difference. I honestly don’t know how I can make a better difference. I don’t know where the best place is for me I just know i can’t ever just ignore this. It’s subjectively and objectively too important to drop. I doubt publishing a small article somewhere, if I could, would make any more difference than word of mouth can. There are lots of them already. All it would do is maybe briefly boost my own ego that it got accepted. But it wouldn’t change anything.

A discussion forum like this, at least is open to longer posts and discussion even if it sometimes goes sideways.
 
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