Confirmation Versus Adult Baptism

[crazyheart]

There was a section in This United Church of Ours.(I think). It made

sense to me because this is the United Church and kids that confirm should

know a little about whys and wherefores of the church that they are a member of.

 

[crazyheart]

When things are done by rote, we are being very exclusive of some people. Some folk

have a hard time reading or can't read at all. People are dyslexic or learn by doing or

seeing. In Children's ministry , we are mindful of all people.

 

[chansen]

Chansen,

No, my work with youth has never made the papers. Nor do I care about what posters of your ilk think of me.

You never made social media with youth. Young people will post online about a good hamburger. The only person who has posted glowing reviews of your ministry to social media, is you.

In fact, I intend to soon take another long leave of absence from this site after tying up some loose ends on threads that interest me. I have always delegated youth ministry to lay leaders, but I treasure the many productive relationships I have had with individual youths, especially those who have been victims of abuse or deprivation. I especially treasure my tutoring mentoring relationships with young people and have continued such relationships even in my retirement.

Then comes more empty claims, which we're very used to from you by now.

And if these people are still in contact, you could bring them here. You won't. Either because these people don't exist, or because you are embarrassed that you can't simply demand respect on a small Internet forum.

Every time I bring up inviting your past congregations as a way to legitimize your claims, you leave. There is something to this idea you won't go near. I know you've had a revolving list of Internet forums where you get similar responses, so give our condolences to the next one on the list.

 

[Mystic]

Chansen,
you just can't read, can you? Successful churches have youth leaders to deal with youth education and ministry. I focused on adult ministry, visitation, counseling, and preaching. The youth I dealt with were too poor to have computers or cell phones and therefore had no access to social media. Even if they did, I doubt they'd want to post about private counseling sessions and personal talks with me. And as for inviting friends here, why do you imagine I would want to subject any of my parishioners to a toxic personality like yours?

 

[chansen]

I think it's more likely that they would have some interesting stories about your toxicity, and not be interested in following you. As well, I think you kept your penchant for NDEs away from you parishoners and engage that aspect of your faith online only. At least, that's what I got from your district superintendent. So I bet they would be surprised at your online persona and interests, assuming they even cared to hear from you again.

 

[Mystic]

Your drivel illustrates just how ignorant you are. In fact, our ministerium even brought in an NDEr to share his testimony. Some of my parishioners shared about their own afterdeath contacts with their beloved dead; and my sermon accounts of NDEs relevant to my topic were very well received.
But since you lack the class to stick to a thread's topic, I will do that for you.

In NT churches, baptism was closely associated with one's initial reception of the Holy Spirit and this reception was viewed as much more than a dry act of faith; it was viewed as an experience of divine power. So in standard Christian baptismal services, the pastor lays hands on the baptizand to receive the Holy Spirit. But there is no expectation of any such spiritual experience, and so, this act is given only a couple of seconds. So I recommend as part of the baptismal ceremony that, after the baptismal act and the words "Receive the Holy Spirit," the pastor should allow a minute or two of silent meditation as the baptizand meditates on the thought of the Spirit's arrival and the congregation prays for a meaningful and recognizable experience of the Spirit's entrance into the believer's life. Of course, this requires adequate preparation and explanation of the biblical grounds for doing this, but I measured the success of my baptisms in part by whether the baptizand experienced the baptism as if they were kneeling on holy ground. God is sovereign is such matters and any such experience will be imparted in God's own good time. But an expectation build-up is helpful and appreciated.

 

[Ichthys]

Ichthys - there is quite a difference between circumcision and baptism. Circumcision involves physically altering part of the body - baptism is simply sprinkling or immersing in water. For those who don't believe it has no more effect than a shower or a dunking in a swimming pool.

That is not my problem. My problem is the pressure and stigmatizing that happens when you are not baptized. As if you were somehow lost. As if the whole thing is necessary. It's a ceremony to prove to others that you are a believer. If God is all knowing why do you have to prove anything?

 

[chansen]

Your drivel illustrates just how ignorant you are. In fact, our ministerium even brought in an NDEr to share his testimony. Some of my parishioners shared about their own afterdeath contacts with their beloved dead; and my sermon accounts of NDEs relevant to my topic were very well received.

From your superintendent:

I regularly read his church newsletter and have heard him speak (beyond my supervisory work with him), and only once, several years ago, do I recall a mention of Near Death Experiences, so perhaps he makes more of it online than in person.

I think Dale is on the money with that comment.

You never wrote about it in your church newsletter, and only mentioned it once in the company of your superintendent for many years. We've heard a lot more than that at Wondercafe and your other online, ahem, haunts. And I think you know that your ambulance chasing theology wouldn't get any traction in a United Methodist setting and might lead to some people thinking you're a loon. Which is the general reaction online as well.

 

[revsdd]

@chansen,
If you have something to contribute to the thread that's actually about either baptism or confirmation, you're welcome to do so. Otherwise, please leave the thread. I understand your dislike of Mystic, but you can't deliberately derail threads that people were participating in simply for the sake of attacking him. He had been engaging the thread productively until your Post #29, which initiated nothing but a series of attacks and counter-attacks. Again - either post what's relevant to the thread or leave the thread alone for those who are interested.

 

[chansen]

I've refuted the fraud. Again. I'm done.

 

[Mystic]

Why should I offer my best material in our church newsletter? And where did you get the impression that I claimed to always preach on NDEs. Only on those rare occasions, when I preached about facing death or the afterlife did I do so? But I often discussed NDEs and ADCs privately because members had similar experiences or had loved ones who did; and my accounts gave them hope. You have no answer to the compelling evidence of NDEs, especially shared NDEs such as that experienced by /Dr. Ray Moody, in which bedside family members were taken out of body on the first leg of their deceased loved one's journey. But like the flat earthers I encounter in town, I'll just let you stew in your pathetic bias and miss out on spiritual joys that would change your life.

 

[revsdd]

@Mystic,
Please return to the topic at hand.

To remind everyone - this thread is about baptism and confirmation - not NDEs and not chansen's opinion of Mystic.

 

[GeoFee]

Hi,

In NT churches, baptism was closely associated with one's initial reception of the Holy Spirit and this reception was viewed as much more than a dry act of faith; it was viewed as an experience of divine power.

I was baptized by full immersion mid winter in Manitoba. Still very wet, I crossed the two spans of the Disraeli bridge. Arriving in my single occupancy room I laid down on the bed. I took my Bible and held over my heart. I prayed for the living word in the dead letters to enter my life. Tongues of fire began ascending and descending. This continued for some time. Then I slipped into a deep and dreamless sleep.

It matters little to me what language is used to describe the appearance of the Holy Spirit. Listening to others speak of their experience and insight I seek indicators of humility and compassion. Noticing high minded rhetoric laden with scriptural justifications I adopt a critical distance. This not to dismiss the proffered perspective. Fully aware of my limits, I am clear that all "other" persons deserve to be respected. My experience makes abundantly clear that insight and encouragement may take form under the most unlikely circumstances.

George

 

[Mystic]

George,
Thanks for sharing your baptismal experience of divine encounter. It illustrates the wisdom of an old cliché: It's better to have wild fire than no fire at all. It also illustrates the wisdom of an old Billy Graham saying: "In life theological understanding is the booby prize because it gives us just enough spirituality to inoculate us against the real thing"--the experience of intimate connection with God or Christ.

As an ex-theology professor, it initially seemed natural for me to upgrade the theological correctness of the baptismal liturgy. But when I considered the ritual from the perspective of the young people I loved who were wondering just how real God can become in their experience, I changed my focus to the quality of their rich inner experience of baptism. Now that I'm retired, I wish I'd have taken more steps to improve that quality. But one of my weaknesses derives from my academic background: I wanted my performances to be accurate and spiritually sound. So my add-ons sometimes took too much time and I became time conscious. But time consciousness quenches the Spirit. So in retrospect, I wish I had shorten other aspects of the service to allow me to speak from the heart and take extra care to see that these young people had a profound encounter with the Spirit during their baptism. I'm sure that many ambitious retired pastors have some profound regrets about what they could have done differently to be more effective channels of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Luce NDs]

Some times scriptural missals do illicit responses ... undercover responsibility if you don't just regurgitate what was quoted ...

Even God's Nature will respond in due time ... consider the environment of the response to trumpeting ... hosts fear Gabriel ...

Thus God was left in peace so as to rest ...