Christianity and war 2022
- Thread starter Graeme Decarie
- Start date
Welcome to Wondercafe2!
A community where we discuss, share, and have some fun together. Join today and become a part of it!
Graeme Decarie
Well-Known Member
for reasons not clear to me, the picture beside this is me ( a lovable child.)
But, oh, I wonder about the Christian churches. British and Canadian ones praised God. So did the German ones. And the American ones went to Afghanistant to bless their soldiers who were murdering civilians and children. Indeed, I don't know of any war of a western country that has not been blessed by the Christian churches.
The reality is that all the Chiristian churches for more than a thousand years have been quite unchristian
When Canadians were murdering Afghanis for 12 years, we blessed them. We have made Christianity a farce.
graeme decarie
But, oh, I wonder about the Christian churches. British and Canadian ones praised God. So did the German ones. And the American ones went to Afghanistant to bless their soldiers who were murdering civilians and children. Indeed, I don't know of any war of a western country that has not been blessed by the Christian churches.
The reality is that all the Chiristian churches for more than a thousand years have been quite unchristian
When Canadians were murdering Afghanis for 12 years, we blessed them. We have made Christianity a farce.
graeme decarie
Most people and most civilizations have their God/god and believe their God/god to be on their side.
Is that not normal? Even when opposing sides in battle share the same God?
How does that old saying go … “God was created in the image of man” … or something like that?
So Graeme, this is a reiteration of what you have often posted. What do you propose to remediate Christianity and the Christian churches?
Can you propose what should replace the Christian “farce” (your label)?
Everyone needs a north star.
Do you propose 8 billion north stars, one for each person in the world today?
Do you propose no religion? If so, where is the moral compass? Who establishes it?
I agree with you that churches, whether Christian or other, have not always or even often set exemplary models to follow. Sometimes they have, and sometimes individuals who were brought up in the church have risen to make the world better.
Can you agree that the essence of the Christian message, i.e., Jesus' example, is worthy of promotion and of being followed?
Is that not normal? Even when opposing sides in battle share the same God?
How does that old saying go … “God was created in the image of man” … or something like that?
So Graeme, this is a reiteration of what you have often posted. What do you propose to remediate Christianity and the Christian churches?
Can you propose what should replace the Christian “farce” (your label)?
Everyone needs a north star.
Do you propose 8 billion north stars, one for each person in the world today?
Do you propose no religion? If so, where is the moral compass? Who establishes it?
I agree with you that churches, whether Christian or other, have not always or even often set exemplary models to follow. Sometimes they have, and sometimes individuals who were brought up in the church have risen to make the world better.
Can you agree that the essence of the Christian message, i.e., Jesus' example, is worthy of promotion and of being followed?
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
You don't need religion for a moral compass and, as Graeme frequently points out, organized religion frequently lacks one as much as anything. Look at the evangelicals supporting Donald Trump in the USA even given his scandals (divorced twice, openly had affairs).
And, honestly, religion has often been used as a bludgeon to enforce a dominant group's prejudices as "morality" rather than actually encouraging people to think about what is right and wrong. Think about how religion has been, and often still is, frequently used to attack LGBTQ for instance. Or, as Graeme suggests, to attack those opposing wars and violence.
Moral philosophy, using reason to figure out principles that will ensure the best outcomes for the most people, can do morality. It offers the opportunity to think about what we do and why we do it rather than just enforce a bunch of dubious thousand year-old rules. It lets us find that moral compass ourselves. From my standpoint, a moral agnostic/atheist like Bertrand Russell accomplished far more good than some of the Christians who blindly supported the state and shrilly attacked his pacifist positions on WWI and Vietnam.
Why not? Why not simply follow the UU fourth principle of a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning" instead of expecting everyone to conform to a particular faith or philosophy? If people want to align with a particular faith group, great, but no faith group should be "in charge" outside their own membership. True separation of church and state would go a long way towards dealing with what Graeme describes.
Being the historical norm does not make it right. I just watched a documentary this morning that talked about the people in ancient Mesopotamia believed that when cities fought, their gods also fought. Is that really a healthy model for the modern world? Using religion to uphold hatred of the other and support human conflicts? Any modern religion that is seriously claiming to be following a "Prince of Peace" needs to look very critically at the idea of God supporting human warfare.
I agree with you that Graeme sometimes goes too far in his attacks on Christianity, but there is a lot of truth in what he says even if we do not like how he says it. All too often, Christianity has used God to support wars and other harmful actions. All too often, Christianity has used God as a weapon to enforce prejudices and support positions that are otherwise unsupportable.
But if you want to refute Graeme's position, then join him in criticizing Christianity's moral failings and encourage the faithful to fix the faith's flaws instead of trying to shoot him down. Present a Christianity that truly is a moral faith of peace and his arguments go away.
Oh that we could.
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
You could do worse than look at the Quakers.
Graeme Decarie
Well-Known Member
Graeme Decarie
Well-Known Member
I agree that Christ and God are worthy of promotion. But the reality is that we and our churches don't do it. We are mindless hypocrites.
Graeme Decarie
Well-Known Member
And we and our churches are Godless
Like black and white are different ... and indicating where the brighter inclines to go ... thus naivete reins ...
Ignorance has a great grip ... and furthermore not knowing is easier ... unknown? The process of going out and gathering and returning is ongoing ... but a dark process.
Could it be because on this side none wished to know ... then we consider the exceptions ... stranger laws and loss!
In the interim there was a struggle ... with implications ... a kind of consequence ... imps? How do abused children affect the surroundings?
It's complex ... not for the simple ... like studying about a fileted soul ... there may be more to it that strikes the ayes ... and yare goes ... responding to the helm which is back there ... tis a regressive thing like the dance ... 1 forward and 2 back ...
Ignorance has a great grip ... and furthermore not knowing is easier ... unknown? The process of going out and gathering and returning is ongoing ... but a dark process.
Could it be because on this side none wished to know ... then we consider the exceptions ... stranger laws and loss!
In the interim there was a struggle ... with implications ... a kind of consequence ... imps? How do abused children affect the surroundings?
It's complex ... not for the simple ... like studying about a fileted soul ... there may be more to it that strikes the ayes ... and yare goes ... responding to the helm which is back there ... tis a regressive thing like the dance ... 1 forward and 2 back ...
And herein lies the rub....what you are saying is often echoed from agnostics and atheists and Christian's alike....perfection is demanded in order to prove ones worthiness of being a worshipper of God. That's never going to happen and God knows it. People need to gather to get a grip on this and to be encouraged to try harder, to hold ourselves and each other accountable, to focus away from ourselves and towards God and others. Yes there's self assessment but that cant be our only resource.
I see the church as necessary but I agree, as a whole, our overall silence or shrouded whispers against wars, poverty, gov't, ourselves, etc....is negligent. ( as in why did it take this long to acknowledge how the indigenous people were wronged? And the emotional and sexual abuse still ongoing, and on and on) It becomes so negligent that it tends to paint every church under the same brush, and that's not always fair.
I like that you speak out, it makes us think, but ultimately words are nothing until we act.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Look, the basic problem is that the Church is a human institution and is going to have human failings. God did not ordain the church, God is only present in the church as far as people let him in. All too often, I find it to be just another human institution with very little sense of God's presence outside of maybe Sunday mornings. Once we accept that and treat it as such, we can start recognizing that it is up to humans to improve/fix it and bring God back in. And I think we see that in some churches (UCCan being one) but there are others in the Christian community working even harder, or so it seems to me, to keep the church as an institution about power and control.
And, as Graeme and Chansen and others have pointed out, there seems to be reluctance on the part of some of the churches seeking to follow a path of love to openly, publicly call out the ones working to maintain Christendom. "They'll know we are Christians by our Love," has to have limits when people are using Christianity as a vehicle for hate and unjust use of power. Dialogue can only happen when the other side is listening and I think I am fairly safe in saying that the fundamentalists and related groups are not listening to liberals and progressives. "Respecting their sincerely held beliefs," only makes you complicit in their hate if it keeps you from calling them out for it. Lobby hard against their proposals and their attempts to wield political power. Wave the gospel in their faces the way they wave in yours. If they condemn you to Hell, remember that your love for those they are attacking and seeking to destroy/control is more important than your love for them and don't be afraid to hit back. Being nice won't win this culture war.
And, as Graeme and Chansen and others have pointed out, there seems to be reluctance on the part of some of the churches seeking to follow a path of love to openly, publicly call out the ones working to maintain Christendom. "They'll know we are Christians by our Love," has to have limits when people are using Christianity as a vehicle for hate and unjust use of power. Dialogue can only happen when the other side is listening and I think I am fairly safe in saying that the fundamentalists and related groups are not listening to liberals and progressives. "Respecting their sincerely held beliefs," only makes you complicit in their hate if it keeps you from calling them out for it. Lobby hard against their proposals and their attempts to wield political power. Wave the gospel in their faces the way they wave in yours. If they condemn you to Hell, remember that your love for those they are attacking and seeking to destroy/control is more important than your love for them and don't be afraid to hit back. Being nice won't win this culture war.
The intrepid person will take a mean position intermediate to the poles ... and both side (positivism vs negativism) will try and put the medium down ... the the diabolical mind causing a head down plunge ... thus NU'ð rons ... and in the Pics ... rons were like rabbit holes (mysterious)!
With transliteration the ron as an end becomes don of the abstract!
It is mystical and not for those despising the unknown ... as it is a vast exponential spread ... thus thick matters ... dense! Re NU'd in some circles ... rye as a Jae Boid ... floating? What's a Jae ... in another tradition that'd be Iæ ... a transition poorly understood as the iconic tree of I'sse!
The story may go on poorly understood for a great time ... animus in time? But you cannot say that in legalese ... powerful laws bind everything up ... knows height ... and there it lies ... for personal benefit it appears (incarnate)? Then there is the curve of hyperbole ... another bole ... cotton, or do you kin tue it?
Ah .. we dance to the will of god's without a clue ... and what supports that? Virtue: we don't know ... means are like thin spaces ...
With transliteration the ron as an end becomes don of the abstract!
It is mystical and not for those despising the unknown ... as it is a vast exponential spread ... thus thick matters ... dense! Re NU'd in some circles ... rye as a Jae Boid ... floating? What's a Jae ... in another tradition that'd be Iæ ... a transition poorly understood as the iconic tree of I'sse!
The story may go on poorly understood for a great time ... animus in time? But you cannot say that in legalese ... powerful laws bind everything up ... knows height ... and there it lies ... for personal benefit it appears (incarnate)? Then there is the curve of hyperbole ... another bole ... cotton, or do you kin tue it?
Ah .. we dance to the will of god's without a clue ... and what supports that? Virtue: we don't know ... means are like thin spaces ...
Last edited:
How's that working for you/us?
Let's take this site as a micro example...what we have left standing are a handful of liberal progressives and barely any conservative/fundamental thinkers left. And their thoughts are to encourage the liberals and culture to change towards their beliefs.
Personally I came into this site as more conservative and now I feel I would be considered more liberally inclined when it comes to Christianity. Sometimes it just takes being exposed to other ideas to change, but quite frankly if there hadn't been other conservatives present to counter argue some very good points, it would have been a shock to my system....because first I had to to actually learn more of the fundamentals...eg grace.
It reminds me of millennials and gen z....some of their cultural changes are jarring for older folks...some are questionable and some are long overdue. Some changes need to be immediate, others not so much.
The ability to learn takes flight when one learns about the dense ... hard points! Some ancient creator of a lexus said that intelligence was beyond our process ... that's the word (Yon, Jon, Jan, ot Joan) commonly studied by rare folk! Thus vast misunderstanding as dark space ... God rest'm! So much is dead to the soul that is non sentient ... sapient? Saponification is a deeper bonding ... thus greater dimensions to learn ... perhaps that ground effect ...
Expect smears and splashes ... ink spot tests? Rorschach spread I gather ... make something ovite! Veite AL ... vios condios ... gotta go ...
Last edited:
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I am not talking about conservatives who want traditional theologies upheld. @revjohn is a good example of someone who does that and still manages to not be part of the hateful, spiteful crowd that is the religious right. I love conversing with him and others like him. Even @Mystic at times. I'm a unitarian who happily listens to Trinitarians and a universalist who learns a lot from dialoguing with Calvinists and Arminians.
I am talking about those who use religion to justify travesties like the Texas abortion law or to justify revoking the hard-earned rights of LGBTQ. They make it clear time and again that they do not want dialogue; they want to win. And right now, they believe they are winning so have even less reason to dialogue. They are the reason I will not vote Conservative. The party is trying to make it look like it is not beholden to them but keeps hedging. One minute the CPC is pro-choice, the next they are meeting quietly with an anti-abortion group. I do not plan to engage in dialogue with people like that, I plan to keep them as far from the halls of power as possible and liberal and progressive Christians should be doing the same and damn respecting their "sincerely held beliefs". To be respected, beliefs need to merit respect and belief in using religion as a tool to oppress does not merit any respect whatsoever.
I do not refute Graeme’s statements because I agree with them in many respects.
In working my way through my own thoughts provoked by Graeme’s post, I ended up with the question of what to use as a guiding light. I think that the example of Jesus is worthy of that role but oh! as we see all around us, it has been subjected to so many interpretations and rules that it has been severely warped. In spite of that, there are the examples of Martin Luther King Jr., Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther, Mother Teresa who could rise above the system of religion. And there are many more known only in their local circles.
Given Graeme’s dire assessment, I was looking for what comes next. Thus my question.
It is good to see the positive comments in answer.
In working my way through my own thoughts provoked by Graeme’s post, I ended up with the question of what to use as a guiding light. I think that the example of Jesus is worthy of that role but oh! as we see all around us, it has been subjected to so many interpretations and rules that it has been severely warped. In spite of that, there are the examples of Martin Luther King Jr., Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther, Mother Teresa who could rise above the system of religion. And there are many more known only in their local circles.
Given Graeme’s dire assessment, I was looking for what comes next. Thus my question.
It is good to see the positive comments in answer.
jimkenney12
Well-Known Member
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I wish the United Church of Canada was less determined to be a uniting Church and more willing to directly challenge or call out actions and proclamations that are harmful to specific groups of people. The UCC has lost so much influence that it's leaders seem reluctant to receive so losing any more by engaging controversial issues.
Going thro' that with an uncertainty in how the determined are coming at us to do something improbable!
Mass of (massive) folk can't see the parts coming together for any good to the autarch's ... such is what happens in the elimination of rational!
Thus the irrational flames ... and there is a response ... counter fire? A domestic item ...