BetteTheRed
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Berserk, as in "creating chaos" is a more appropriate moniker than Mystic, as in "creating peace". There be a**holes in life.
Another major denomination on the ropes
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BetteTheRed
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And if you'd ever like to know why I have absolutely no respect for him, do ask.
Notice the contrast: Bette just can't accept the need for her manners to be house-broken.
By contrast, I have pledged to go out of my way to be consistently polite if biased moderation would just discipline her refusal to refrain from name-call and insults, despite warnings. But I am a conservative and Bette is a progressive; and the site's cancel culture dictates that verbal abuse directed at me is tolerable--this despite the possibility of putting my pledge to the test!
Mystic is sounding more and more like the news article, today, on Putin and the winners circle ... the Cossack's fear being conditioned ...socially that is!
If overbearing cannot be constrained ... look for outs! Thus bullies depart ... una Cajon's ...
Now if you understand Cajon's in Spain ... they're spheres on the other end! MS Queue'd ... una leigh n'd ... fried up? Burned out ... great ball Sa' fire ... sapphire? Blackened ... lacey ...
If overbearing cannot be constrained ... look for outs! Thus bullies depart ... una Cajon's ...
Now if you understand Cajon's in Spain ... they're spheres on the other end! MS Queue'd ... una leigh n'd ... fried up? Burned out ... great ball Sa' fire ... sapphire? Blackened ... lacey ...
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jimkenney12
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Back to the thread. Mainstream churches are declining because too many members do not care enough about their faith and their church to make a significant commitment to developing, sharing, and applying their faith. They do not care enough in part because church leaders have not effectively invited them to share in actions that are demandingly important.
It may be intellectually stimulating for many UCCans and other progressives to focus on questions at the expense of answers,
but for most this wishy-washy mentality paralyzes faith at the point of empowering personal mystical experiences.
UK evangelical churches, and especially Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, are growing precisely because their members are excited about what God is doing in their lives and are therefore highly motivated to share this with outsiders and to volunteer in making new church plants highly successful.
In this regard, I often ponder the dramatic conversion of Vince, a hardened online skeptic and author I used to debate on issues like answered prayer, NDEs, and personal paranormal experiences. He loved his evangelical volleyball teammates who were excited about their faith. So they worked to get him to attend their church. And when he finally came, he suddenly found God real throgh the palpable presence of Christ in that service and was gloriously converted. Our online debates got us nowhere, but one life-changing encounter with Christ made the decisive difference, so that Vince suddenly took an new active interest in the experiences I shared. Personal experience is everything!
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Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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So the solution is to keep congregants fed with pulpit-approved answers and not encourage (or even discourage) thinking too much about them? Maybe that's not what you're saying, but it does seem to be the direction that leads. We have seen the effects of that approach to religion both historically and currently and it is honestly not pretty. Clergy abusing their power over congregants, heresy trials for those who do dare to question, shunning of people who don't fit in or go their own way, and so on. It is the path to the kind of authoritarian religion that we were supposed to be throwing off in the post-Reformation era.
I have certainly known UUs who managed to have both experiential faith and room for questioning and thoughtful exploration, especially among the ones who embrace Eastern traditions.
I have certainly known UUs who managed to have both experiential faith and room for questioning and thoughtful exploration, especially among the ones who embrace Eastern traditions.
Precisely the opposite! Billy Graham put it best: "In the Christian walk theological understanding is the booby prize because if offers just enough spirituality to inoculate you against the real thing." By "the real thing" Billy meant the experience of a life-changing intimate relationship with Christ.
As a boy, I had the privilege of attending every one of Graham's 7 crusade meetings at the packed-out Winnipeg arena. I always arrived a half hour early to soak up the electrifying sense of God's presence in the arena! Decades later, I met a UCCan minister here in Washington state who was converted in onoe of those meetings along with countless others. His wife was on the UCCan national leadership council.
Nancy
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At our regional meeting this weekend, one presenter talked about collaborative ministry, which can take several different forms (think outside the box). He thinks that the increased involvement of lay people in collaborative ministry is a way to move forward in the church. He also said that sometimes it is the ordained ministry that prevents this from happening. Interestingly, although he didn't emphasize this point, collaborative ministry seems to be more cost effective too...with half-time ministry, volunteers and lay leaders who share their gifts. He said that it might not be a 'fix' to save the church, but could become a priority to meet the current needs of our churches.
Another speaker was a 'growth animator', who also encouraged us to think outside the box after looking at our faith communities and the neighbourhoods in which they are situated.
I know we lament the decline in numbers in our own churches, but, after this weekend, I feel that there is hope for the United Church. We had some young ministers in our midst, and much positive, faith-filled talk. The moderator loves to use the word 'flourishing', and another staff member cautioned us from talk that became a 'downward spiral'.
There was such a good spirit in the place all weekend....Now we just need to bring that spirit out into the rest of the world.
Another speaker was a 'growth animator', who also encouraged us to think outside the box after looking at our faith communities and the neighbourhoods in which they are situated.
I know we lament the decline in numbers in our own churches, but, after this weekend, I feel that there is hope for the United Church. We had some young ministers in our midst, and much positive, faith-filled talk. The moderator loves to use the word 'flourishing', and another staff member cautioned us from talk that became a 'downward spiral'.
There was such a good spirit in the place all weekend....Now we just need to bring that spirit out into the rest of the world.
One of the most satisfying aspects of m 8-year ministry in my last church was the ministry participation I was able to inspire.
Every year we had a lay Sunday with 3 inexperienced and often reluctant 10 minute preachers. Then whenever I needed to be away (conferences or vacation), I persuaded another lay preacher to run the service. This practice created a large reserve of lay ministers who surprised themselves at how well
they performed and how great the congregational feedback was. This practice motivated them to take more ownership of the church and to participate in its other ministries as well. Few church events are more inspiring than watching a shy person lacking in confidence gradually overcome their nervousness and begin to speak with an air of confidence and eloquence. An annual youth Sunday was used to help our youth discover their gifts and increase their loyalty to the church.
Some say this is anxiety as it strains the established ... perturbation ... based on computations and other endogenous situations that come up; endogeneity in the spread of numbers! Always some out lyre's ... just looking in! The pious hate it ... communication in complexity! Its a challenge ...
Then the human soul, mind, psyche is indeed a strange item ... forsooth! Infinitely circular Logos ... signs, icons, Semites ... folk hate the signals ... red lights are fr dashing thro' ... thus peculiar accidents that we should've observed coming ... alas ... deficiencies!
I'm told you can't say such things ... ineffable! Confuses folk ... complexity groans ...
Then the human soul, mind, psyche is indeed a strange item ... forsooth! Infinitely circular Logos ... signs, icons, Semites ... folk hate the signals ... red lights are fr dashing thro' ... thus peculiar accidents that we should've observed coming ... alas ... deficiencies!
I'm told you can't say such things ... ineffable! Confuses folk ... complexity groans ...
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Mendalla
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Lay worship leaders are almost the norm in smaller Unitarian Universalist congregations, at least around here. I think some of the big UU churches in the US and larger Canadian ones lean less on them. Some small, heavily humanist congregations in Ontario have never had professional ministry, just lay leadership. I guest preached at one of those many hears ago.
In the fellowship I used to attend, the minister (during the period we had one) was contracted for only 3 Sundays a month plus other duties. That left 1-2 Sundays for lay leaders. And the minister also got, IIRC, six weeks off in the summer, also lay-led. I chaired worship for several years so was lining up leaders and was doing 2-4 services a year myself at one point. Then the fellowship decided they could no longer afford a permanent, full-time minister and just had a contract, part-time minister, which was transitional to going fully lay-led as they are now. I left around that time for a variety of reasons.
You might find this funny to hear, but I am probably too traditionally religious for them now, which is why I am hesitating about returning.
jimkenney12
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Deep River Community Church almost always has lay members of the congregation lead worship when the ministers are not there
I found Mystics reply to my last post in that it seemed to validate my post. I agree with him in that intellectualism can be a distraction from faith. Few of our actions or feelings are based on theology or philosophy. Faith needs to be grounded in experiences.
I found Mystics reply to my last post in that it seemed to validate my post. I agree with him in that intellectualism can be a distraction from faith. Few of our actions or feelings are based on theology or philosophy. Faith needs to be grounded in experiences.
Mendalla
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Agreed, but that then needs to be tempered with reason. Simply going with experiences without reflecting on them and exploring what they really mean can quickly lead us into bad places.
jimkenney12
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Totally agree. Belief without experience is groundless.
So churches need to make a choice on which problems they embrace. To that end, I strongly believe in this principle: It's easier to feel your way to Giod than to think your way to God. This is true despite the shallowness of much emotional experience.
In the spectacular Welsh Revival of 1904-1906, the acknowledged leader, Evan Roberts, was an emotionally unstable coal miner who had spent months of all-night prayer vigils praying for revival. Then he says God told him there would soon be 100,000 conversions of the unchurched--a prophecy that was fulfilled within just 4 months with no advertising, special promotions, or famous guest speakers. Many thousands more conversions occurred among nominal church attenders. These converts jammed the churches to suffocation, often refusing to leave until 4 in the morning. Such was the electrifying presence of God in those spontaneous unstructured meetings.
Eventually, the spontaneity of those meetings led to excessive exhibitionism among some spiritually immature new converts and Roberts was blamed for this by respectable evangelical ministers of large English churches. Roberts couldn't take this criticism and the revival fires were quickly extinguished. Follow-up studies proved that almost all of these conversions were permament. If forced to choose, most Christians would now strongly prefer the excesses of those meetings to get the permanent mass conversions and the unprecented sense of God's palpable presence that removed the attenders' willingness to go home until the small hours of the morning.
No sermon has inspired me more than J. Edwin Orr's mesmerizing lecture on how the famous Welsh Revival unfolded:
orr welsh revival of 1904 - Search Videos
So churches need to make a choice on which problems they embrace. To that end, I strongly believe in this principle: It's easier to feel your way to Giod than to think your way to God. This is true despite the shallowness of much emotional experience.
In the spectacular Welsh Revival of 1904-1906, the acknowledged leader, Evan Roberts, was an emotionally unstable coal miner who had spent months of all-night prayer vigils praying for revival. Then he says God told him there would soon be 100,000 conversions of the unchurched--a prophecy that was fulfilled within just 4 months with no advertising, special promotions, or famous guest speakers. Many thousands more conversions occurred among nominal church attenders. These converts jammed the churches to suffocation, often refusing to leave until 4 in the morning. Such was the electrifying presence of God in those spontaneous unstructured meetings.
Eventually, the spontaneity of those meetings led to excessive exhibitionism among some spiritually immature new converts and Roberts was blamed for this by respectable evangelical ministers of large English churches. Roberts couldn't take this criticism and the revival fires were quickly extinguished. Follow-up studies proved that almost all of these conversions were permament. If forced to choose, most Christians would now strongly prefer the excesses of those meetings to get the permanent mass conversions and the unprecented sense of God's palpable presence that removed the attenders' willingness to go home until the small hours of the morning.
No sermon has inspired me more than J. Edwin Orr's mesmerizing lecture on how the famous Welsh Revival unfolded:
orr welsh revival of 1904 - Search Videos
www.bing.com
Mass madness ... an experience of group nature ... it can go either way depending on the vectors ...
Thus a lot of weaving and wobbling ... spatial wrinkles?