And they're off...the election thread

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Kimmio said:
Actually, I knew for a long time that Justin Trudeau had been a high school teacher in BC. Here in Vancouver, in fact. I may have even brushed shoulders with him somewhere and not realized who he was, in the day. You're right, he taught more than drama. But the drama bit stood out. I think I might've learned about the drama teacher role when he was wearing his swashbuckling goatee on an Evan Soloman interview ages ago - somebody remarked on it, and to my memory it wasn't any Conservative attack, it was friendly. I always though he was handsome - and I have nothing against drama classes. He didn't get into politics until sometime in the 2000s. It was not a big ambition of his early on to have a political career in his dad's footsteps.

As for Harper, he's been an MP since the early 90s and he helped facilitate the Conservative/ Alliance merger. He has more political leadership experience, even though I do not agree with his politics. (I had to look up how long he'd been MP but I knew it was a long time. Harper's been at politics twice as long as Justin Trudeau, and particularly leadership roles.)

Justin is quite a bit younger - almost the same age as me - and that doesn't mean he can't do it, of course, but I don't think he's experienced enough yet.

And Mulcair's been at politics longer than Harper.
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Harper hasn't been an MP since the early 90's. He served one term as an MP from 1993-1997, then left to become head of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, a lobby group. So, when Harper became PM in 2006 he had been an MP for a little over 7 years (1993-1997, and then again when he won the leadership of the Canadian Alliance he ran for Parliament and was elected in May of 2002 in a by-election.) In 2006, Harper was 46 years old. As of now Trudeau has been an MP for almost exactly 7 years and is 43 years old. I fail to see the substantial difference in experience between the two at the equivalent stage in their careers. Having been a teacher for several years, Trudeau has far more real world experience than Harper, who basically has been a politician/lobbyist for his entire life. He's done virtually nothing else, except the mail room job and very briefly an IT job for the same oil company after leaving high school and before going to university. Probably to give himself more gravitas, he falsely portrays himself as an economist rather than as what he is - someone who has a degree in economics. The two are not the same thing. I know you're not a Harper-ite, but I think the comparison is fair and important. If it's strictly political experience that counts, Mulcair beats Trudeau hands down.

You may well have heard something about the drama teacher thing from Evan Solomon, but I'm quite sure that it would have been in the context of asking or talking about the Conservative portrayal of him. And you acknowledge that he's been "more" than a drama teacher. The reality is he's NOT a drama teacher. He was a math and French teacher. He filled in for a drama teacher, teaching the class while the drama teacher was off. Again - a difference.

It truly just fascinates me the way the Conservatives have branded Trudeau as an inexperienced drama teacher, when he's neither inexperienced nor a drama teacher.
 
revsdd said:
Harper hasn't been an MP since the early 90's. He served one term as an MP from 1993-1997, then left to become head of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, a lobby group. So, when Harper became PM in 2006 he had been an MP for a little over 7 years (1993-1997, and then again when he won the leadership of the Canadian Alliance he ran for Parliament and was elected in May of 2002 in a by-election.) In 2006, Harper was 46 years old. As of now Trudeau has been an MP for almost exactly 7 years and is 43 years old. I fail to see the substantial difference in experience between the two at the equivalent stage in their careers. Having been a teacher for several years, Trudeau has far more real world experience than Harper, who basically has been a politician/lobbyist for his entire life. He's done virtually nothing else, except the mail room job and very briefly an IT job for the same oil company after leaving high school and before going to university. Probably to give himself more gravitas, he falsely portrays himself as an economist rather than as what he is - someone who has a degree in economics. The two are not the same thing. I know you're not a Harper-ite, but I think the comparison is fair and important. If it's strictly political experience that counts, Mulcair beats Trudeau hands down.

You may well have heard something about the drama teacher thing from Evan Solomon, but I'm quite sure that it would have been in the context of asking or talking about the Conservative portrayal of him. And you acknowledge that he's been "more" than a drama teacher. The reality is he's NOT a drama teacher. He was a math and French teacher. He filled in for a drama teacher, teaching the class while the drama teacher was off. Again - a difference.

It truly just fascinates me the way the Conservatives have branded Trudeau as an inexperienced drama teacher, when he's neither inexperienced nor a drama teacher.
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I didn't pick up the drama teacher thing from the Conservatives! I swear I think it was a friendly comment and something to do with the fun photo of him looking like a swashbuckling Pirate of Penzance! I don't remember where I learned it but I never took it as an insult against him. He was a high school teacher - big leap from that to negotiating world affairs with Putin and other potentially unsavoury and tough world leaders in a very difficult number of situations in the world. I'd vote for him if he was running for Mayor.
 
Kimmio said:
I didn't pick up the drama teacher thing from the Conservatives! I swear I think it was a friendly comment and something to do with the fun photo of him looking like a swashbuckling Pirate of Penzance! I don't remember where I learned it but I never took it as an insult against him. He was a high school teacher - big leap from that to negotiating world affairs with Putin and other potentially unsavoury and tough world leaders in a very difficult number of situations in the world.
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You didn't get it directly from the Conservatives perhaps, but it got into the public eye from the Conservatives - and it's NOT TRUE. So, whether directly or indirectly, it came about because of Conservative propaganda. And while you say you never took the reference as an insult, your comment on Post 284 of this thread seems to imply that being a drama teacher just doesn't make the cut.

As to Trudeau not holding up well against Putin, fair comment. That's your gut feeling. I respect that. I don't see that Harper has really "held up" against Putin. Oh yeah. He snubbed him or refused to shake his hand or some such thing. I'm sure the Kremlin was trembling in fear.

My only goal here is to say that making an accurate comparison between Trudeau's political experience and Harper's political experience (at the time he became PM) shows that their experience is virtually identical.

If someone's going to vote against Trudeau on the basis of either policy or even gut feeling, I have no problem with that. But the Conservatives are trying to get people to vote for them on the basis that Trudeau is somehow horribly inexperienced, when he has virtually the same level of political experience Harper had in 2006, and arguably more life experience.
 
He may have been around politics. He travelled around with his dad to some interesting places and met some interesting older folks that most of us don't get to meet, when he was too little to understand. He may have been nominally interested in politics in his younger adult years (maybe his dad put him up to it, who knows). But he chose to go into teaching high school as his first choice of careers. I don't get the sense that leader of the country is his best option, or rather, our best option, for his career. Maybe Harper doesn't have more experience - maybe he is more accomplished (whether we like what he accomplished is another matter). But I don't think Justin's life experience necessarily screams Prime Minister. He's had a pretty regular life experience as an adult - more privileged than most - but nothing stellar, and he just seems too nice to be negotiating with the hard-a** politicians of the world, frankly. I worry about that. Domestically, he'd probably be okay.

I don't have rave reviews for Harper, that's for sure. I'm not praising him. He just is more politician-like.
 
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Harper is more accomplished? In what way? Harper has done NOTHING except politics. Most people would think we need more people who AREN'T professional politicians.
 
revsdd said:
Harper is more accomplished? In what way? Harper has done NOTHING except politics. Most people would think we need more people who AREN'T professional politicians.
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I'd say so, for domestic affairs, but not on the international stage. I think they have to be diplomatic, but also tough and not naive whatsoever.
 
Harper helped form the Conservative-Alliance merger. Whether one thinks it was a good accomplishment or not - it was a significant one. It changed the party, and that has had an impact. Good or bad is another matter - but it had a big impact.
 
Harper has sold Canada out on the international stage. US law enforcement officials are now allowed to enter Canada and arrest people. Chinese interests are playing an increading role in our energy industry. Under Harper's watch, for the first time ever Canada tried and failed to win a seat on the UN Security Council. Canada's environmental policies are looked on with disdain. Canada inexplicably embraces Israel when pretty much everyone else in the world understands that Netanyahu is a huge problem.

The PC-Alliance merger happened only because Peter MacKay broke a written pledge never to merge the two parties.

I'm sorry ... what were Harper's accomplishments again?
 
Kimmio said:
He just is more politician-like.
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Which sums my problem with all three (yes, even Trudeau) of the big leaders. They are very much playing the great game and it's bloody freaking obvious they are playing it. May, for all her flaws, is the least "politician-like" of the bunch but voting Green is futile in my riding and likely in my province. That said, I'm leaning back to voting for them after flirting with the NDP for a bit. Their platform still resonates with me on many levels and they need all the votes they can get.
 
Trudea has been in the public eye most of his life. That is a life experience that Harper ha not had.
He has a stable of strong political people that have come and spoke and clearly are willing to be there. That speaks a lot to me.
I have absolute confidence that he or Mulcair would do better than Harper with any politicians. My gut feel is that Trudeau will do better than Mulcair, but, I am looking forward to continued press and visibility into their handling of items.

Trudea's experience is equal or better than Harpers depending on how you measure (thanks for detailing it revsdd).

I am thankful for the handling of questions, in both languagues..
 
ps. I have not determined who I will vote for in my riding. Still watching and checking out the two candidates who are possible and are NOT conservative.
 
revsdd said:
Harper has sold Canada out on the international stage. US law enforcement officials are now allowed to enter Canada and arrest people. Chinese interests are playing an increading role in our energy industry. Under Harper's watch, for the first time ever Canada tried and failed to win a seat on the UN Security Council. Canada's environmental policies are looked on with disdain. Canada inexplicably embraces Israel when pretty much everyone else in the world understands that Netanyahu is a huge problem.

The PC-Alliance merger happened only because Peter MacKay broke a written pledge never to merge the two parties.

I'm sorry ... what were Harper's accomplishments again?
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Politically, one of his most notable was the Conservative-Alliance merger. If we're talking pre-PM. I'm not defending him in any way. Don't misunderstand me here.
 
My gut feel is that Mulcair would do better than Trudeau, that he's less naive. Trudeau I don't think has the type of life experience and knowledge - or character (too much of a nice guy) to prepare him for Putin and the like - there are some unscrupulous characters doing politics on the world stage that are not nice guys - his family legacy isn't enough. It's kind of like saying I'd be better at medicine because my dad's a doctor - that's totally not true. It's not my character, I don't have the structured discipline to that degree and it'd be too emotionally hard, even if I could get through med school. That is my gut feeling and has been for awhile. He's not tough and shrewd enough. "Angry Tom" is - but I think (hope) he's principled and tough. I felt the same about May's character - she'd have to be less polite or she'd get bulldozed by the tough guys, but she knows her stuff and she's principled.
 
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whoever's PM is headed into a shark tank as far as world affairs is concerned. Trudeau strikes me as someone who does not belong there. May, likewise, but I think she knows her stuff so well, she'd make a great adviser. Tom seems like someone well prepared for the shark tank. I don't think he's someone with any delusions about that.
 
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revsdd said:
Harper is more accomplished? In what way? Harper has done NOTHING except politics. Most people would think we need more people who AREN'T professional politicians.
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I don't like Harper. @UnDefinitive @Mendalla Revsdd asked about political experience and I was refering to his political accomplishments before he was PM. The Conservative-Alliance merger is not something I'm cheering but it was a game changing merger. It changed the party.

I think because whoever's in will be dealing with career politicians all the time - some nasty ones - they at least really need to know how to think that way, to understand how they think, be tough - and yet, remain principled.
 
Do we have to be cautious or "what" we say, or "how" we say it in a generally institutionalized world?

The more broad-spread idea-L (as better illumination) appears hidden between the ley lines as set out by those blindly following Nicholai's satyrs ... things appearing as communications, weird manifestations the way they aren't thought out by people in the field of emotional doings ... intelligence being a myth in such realms.

Barry Swartz expresses those well in How We Work! He summarizes in a recent TED Talk as a vivid psychologist who appears to study such outlandish things avoided by those that stick with the physical brain as gonad ... whereas the spirit within it is essence of a working wisdom ... something religiously avoided? Could be a metaphysical outlander ... beyond real comprehension? Don't yah love imaginary things like thought beyond the gravid realm?
 
I was just thinking that Justin Trudeau getting a job as a high school teacher on the other side of the country - that's indicative of someone who made a concerted effort to stay out of the public eye and not be in his dad's shadow. I get the sense that's who he really is. A high school teacher who doesn't belong in high profile political life. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I could be totally wrong too - maybe that's exactly what we need. Nonetheless, I will be voting for whoever, on election day, looks to have the best chance of becoming the new government. And I'm going to vote late in the day.
 
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Another thing that bothers me about Trudeau is, that half of Canadian voters, and 2/3 of NDP and Liberal voters collectively, would support an NDP/ Liberal merger to ensure the Conservatives don't get back in. Harper has said he'd step down if they don't get the most seats but I don't know how true that is. Mulcair said he would support an NDP/ Liberal merger, Trudeau refused the idea several times. That tells me he cares more about brand loyalty than fixing the problems in this country and that he's not listening to voters. The fact right now, that so many will vote either NDP or Liberal - are not party loyal - just to keep the PCs out, is a big deal, and he should be listening. He should recognize how many are not really voting for him or his party, necessarily, but are desperately voting ABC. I think Mulcair realizes that, because he offered the merger idea.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/07/31/half-of-canadian-voters-b_n_7913568.html
 
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