A Lulu From Luke: Dishonesty Commended? (Luke 16: 1-13)

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Somewhat to @Davyc's point, I had an experience when Googling this passage after P3 told me it would be her BPoTW. Below is a snip of a Google search for Luke 16:1-12 that came up with three translations, all on Biblegateway. Each heading has a slightly different meaning and seems skewed to interpreting the parable in a different way. For instance, NIV says "shrewd manager" and ESV says "dishonest manager". These are not synonyms. While one can be shrewd and dishonest, one can be shrewd without being dishonest and dishonest without being shrewd. So which is he? Or is he both? It does slant the message slightly. Then we have NKJV with "unjust steward" which goes in another direction entirely. In order to come up with those headings, one would need to be reading and translating things differently. So can we actually draw universal truth from this parable, or just an interpretation which makes the most sense to us but is not necessarily any more valid or true than someone else's slightly different one?

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This reminds me of Luke 18: 1-8.

The story is sometimes known as the parable of the unjust judge. Other times it is called the parable of the persistent widow. Same text but different emphasis in its interpretation.

It might be good for next week's BPotW:
More Loopiness from Luke :)
 
paradox3 said:
So do you see any value in studying the Bible? What about this particular parable? Does it have anything to tell us or does it confound you?
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It depends on what you mean by 'value' - if you mean do I get any truths from it, I would use a hesitant 'yes' depending on what I was reading and in what context I take it; a lot of what people get from the Bible is personal and if they get comfort from reading, then I am not one to deny them that right. It doesn't tell me enough to make a valid conclusion. Confound? No. Frustrates, yes because there's not enough information.

There are many possible outcomes from the information given, all of which we fill with our own personalities, morals, way of thinking and our beliefs.

It's a similar problem that can be likened to two men standing over another man's dead body - one of them is the perpetrator, the other innocent. Both deny doing the dastardly deed, but there is no evidence presented to you to make a valid judgement; how do you resolve it? As is often said, the details are everything and without them we revert to suppersition.
 
Which is, I think, a problem for most sacred and even many philosophical texts. Even "histories" are often about interpreting scattered facts and stories rather than testable facts and hypotheses like in the scientific method. And it is only a problem when one takes a given interpretation as "correct" and all others as "wrong." As long as one accepts that individual interpretations vary and makes that a basis for discussion rather than suppressing ones that one disagrees with, there is no problem. It means that so-called "literalism" (which is anything but in most cases) is just another interpretation, not "Truth" that supersedes all other interpretations, though. And that is a tough row to hoe for some.
 
There are certainly many possible ways to read this passage and indeed any biblical text.

And this particular story is one of the parables told by Jesus. It makes a great variety of interpretations fair game, I would say.
 
You are getting ahead of us @unsafe. I was planning to start another thread about the persistent widow/ unjust judge. For next week's BPotW. But thanks anyways for joining us.

What do you think about the parable of the dishonest (or shrewd) manager?
 
OH WOW --So Sorry about that ----have no idea how I got you were doing Luke 18 ---I think I just saw this -----This reminds me of Luke 18: 1-8.-from your post above # 22 --and thought that was what you were doing ---my bad ----back to the drawing board ----------

sorry ---hope I didn't screw up your next week's thought -------I guess I didn't have enough coffee before opened Wondercafe this am----
 
paradox3 said:
@Mendalla will probably be able to move your post to the new thread next week.
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That can be managed, but you might have to remind me. That's a whole week and I'm not sure my brain can retain the information for that long (actually, I'll make myself a note in Google Calendar in case we both forget ;)).

So we have unjust stewards this week and unjust judges next. We might have the makings of a series here. :whistle:

I owe you some more commentary on the passage itself and that will come. Need to read it again first.
 
"I am not strong enough to dig and I am too proud to beg," says the manager in v.4.

Let's get back to @Carolla 's earlier comment about privelege for a minute.

It might be difficult for us to appreciate just how desperate and vulnerable the manager would have been after losing his position.

Anyone here ever been downsized out of a job? Emotionally, it is not easy, even with a present day severance package.

The next parable coming up in Luke is Lazarus at the gate. The plight of the beggar at the gate is dire indeed.
 
I have been in a somewhat similar position myself (I approached my manager re diminished referrals from other staff & instead of the getting the help I was seeking was told my services obviously were not needed & that aspect of my work was eliminated - quite the opposite of what I expected). While upsetting, it was not devastating as most of my other work was unaffected, but I certainly have known others who have faced unexpected job loss. I do think that the experience of going through abrupt changes in life (whatever their nature) is made just a little gentler by having support of those around one.

For the manager in this scripture - it seems he may be recognizing his prior activities may have contributed to him being unpopular/disliked in the wider community - not an issue when all was going well for him, but in changed circumstances perhaps he realizes the need for support (in whatever ways) from those around him, and so extends kindness of reducing debt.
 
This is my view on this Parable

Luke 16:1-13

This Parable is all about who will you serve -----God or Money ------

This Parable is for the Disciples but if you read verse 14 --the Pharisees were also listening and the Pharisees were lovers of money ------so there is a mixed audience here

The Rich man who was away a lot hired a Manager to mange his resources ---- the manager was dishonest in his managing of the rich mans resources --so the manager was being fired -----and rightly so in my view -----

The rich man then did a stupid thing --he didn't fire the Manager on the spot and this allowed the Manager to come up with a plan to protect himself -----so he then continued with his unjust ways and lowered debts to make some friends so when he was as fired this debt release would help him have a place to go to ----this was worldly smart planing on his part but done in an corrupt way

So for me this Parable is showing us so far that worldly people will do anything to make sure they have a safe haven to fall back on even if it means using a underhanded method for the person they work for who have trusted them to look after their resources -----

We also see how pride can come into play as the Manage says he can't do physical labour so this says to me this type of work is beneath him and he won't stoop to digging ditches etc to get an income ---- he would rather continue with his wicked management and look after his needs ----

Now here is the strange thing that happened ---the rich man actually praises the Manager for his cleaver plan and says this------- verse 8 “The master praised the dishonest manager for being so clever. Worldly people are more clever than spiritually-minded people when it comes to dealing with others.”

So Spiritually what can we learn from this -----this is my view

First the unjust Manager knew he would be called to give an account for what he did in the Business -and he took that seriously and did what he had to sustain himself -----
So
All Christians should take seriously that they will be called to account and that can be a joy if we are properly going about our Master's business and pleasing Him

Second ---the unjust Manager took advantage of his position to arrange for himself a future ----
So
If Christians pursued the Kingdom of God with the same zeal that the people of this world pursue profits and pleasures --we would live much better lives because our trust would be in God to provide our needs and means to enjoy life --

Jesus says in this verse ----
9 I say to you, make friends for yourself by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when you fall short, they may receive you into eternal dwellings.

So Christians need to learn that all wealth comes from God and we are just stewards of God's money and we should use it to ensure our future in our eternal home --aiding the poor and advancing the Gospel -----Wealth can give much but will profit nothing in the hereafter ----if it is misused here on earth

Verses 10 -13 ----Well this just says if we can't be trusted with little then we will fail to be trusted with much -----if you can't be trusted with unrighteous mammon here and now how can you be trusted with True riches which only comes from God ----

So you can't Serve 2 masters ---if your love is for money --then that is the god you will serve -----If your Love is for God then that is who you will serve --

Where you treasure is there is your heart also ----- Matthew 6:21
 
paradox3 said:
I don't think we can assume it is pride making the manager say he cannot do physical labor. There are many people in this world who could do a desk job but be unable to "dig" for a living.
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Agreed. Often it's an age thing. What one can do as a young person is not the same as what one can do as an older person. Having done the same job (cashier in a grocery store, part-time), separated by 45 or so years, I can tell you that running up the stairs two at a time no longer happens; also, if one must squat down for a reason (retrieving a stray coin, or bag, or catapulting grocery item), planning is necessary for "de-squat"...
 
In have never been the most physically capable of people. I admire those who can do those jobs but I would not have lasted long doing them myself. And society needs all jobs filled. Desk jockeys who plan, organize, and finance projects keep those manual labourers employed.
 
Society also needs hard labour which can't be done mechanically. A lot of fruit and vegetable harvesting comes to mind, often done by (sort of appropriately paid) migrant labour (often inappropriately housed).
 
paradox3 said:
@unsafe
I don't think we can assume it is pride making the manager say he cannot do physical labor. There are many people in this world who could do a desk job but be unable to "dig" for a living.
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Well I personally think we can assume that the Manager is showing pride because no where does it say this manager is physically disabled and I am thinking on a Spiritual level not a worldly level here ------Pride blocks us from seeking God and Jesus here is teaching His Disciples about serving 2 Masters ---Mammon or God ----and He says you will like one and dislike the other ----

The Manager was seeking the easy way out by corrupt ways and so he was following worldly methods --Not Godly methods ---------------So I can assume that digging ditches and hard labour was not for him --he likes the easy dishonest ways to look after himself seeking God means the Manager would have to change His ways of thinking ---as Repentance is the first step in that process -----and we saw that in the beginning he was unjust in the business and then a second time he used a unjust manner to look after himself ----so this shows me that he is not interested in any hard labour --- not that he is disabled and can't do the labour --

I think maybe you are assuming that he is physically disabled as that is the lens your viewing it from and that is fine by me -----we are just viewing the Parable from different perspectives --
 
From Luke 16:3:, NRSV
Then the manager said to himself, ‘What will I do, now that my master is taking the position away from me? I am not strong enough to dig, and I am ashamed to beg.

THAT'S where it says. He is not strong enough to dig. That's a physical situation, pride has little, if anything, to do with it.

I think the part in verse 8, where the owner commends the manager, not for his acts, but for his 'street smarts.' Jesus seems to be wistfully wishing that the 'children of light' could exercise as much forethought and strategic planning as this dishonest manager showed.
 
Is it justice week ... or just as weak? Freudian slip ... graft? The limbic tree expands ...

Imagine all the underground stuff ...
 
Maybe we should stick to how Jesus interpreted it. Our success as followers of Jesus demands understanding how the society around us works and taking that into account in planning our own actions. The failure to do this is why most mainline churches decline. We tended to hold a belief about how society's should function and expected the society around us to agree with us. When they left the church, we tended to blame them instead of our own failure to love them enough to understand them and respond appropriately.

Jesus usually used is, not should, in his preaching. At its heart, the parable is not about shrewd or dishonest people. It is about how we need to be to succeed in our mission.
 
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