89 chapters revisited

[BetteTheRed]

Maybe I'm cynical, but I see no reason to pretend that that middle section of the Venn diagram isn't there. It probably happened and we should deal with that.

Absolutely, as long as we agree that these are two different "crowds" with, possibly, some overlapping members.

 

[Mendalla]

Absolutely, as long as we agree that these are two different "crowds" with, possibly, some overlapping members.

I'd put the overlap at more than a few members, but they are different for sure. I just don't want to pretend that humans don't change sides at the drop of a hat, because they do.

 

[Waterfall]

A good Roman name. Puts her in a pretty good family, too (Claudius would have been her father's family name, making her related in some degree to the emperor of that name who came along a few years later). I don't think Pilate's wife is actually named in any Roman sources so I'd suggest this is possible but can't be confirmed.

I was reading in WIKI that her name was first mentioned in the Gospel of Nicademous 5th century.....so it does sound speculated. Claudia Procula or Procla.

Pontius Pilate's wife - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[BetteTheRed]

I'd put the overlap at more than a few members, but they are different for sure. I just don't want to pretend that humans don't change sides at the drop of a hat, because they do.

But that is not my experience. Humans don't change loyalties that easily. Witness the difficulty that natural conservatives (the past was the best) in changing perspective.

 

[Mendalla]

I was reading in WIKI that her name was first mentioned in the Gospel of Nicademous 5th century.....so it does sound speculated. Claudia Procula or Procla.

Pontius Pilate's wife - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So it seems there may be something to it if you read the bit about the tomb in Beirut, but it still would be nice if someone like Josephus or Tacitus had mentioned her. That would have sealed the deal.

 

[Mendalla]

But that is not my experience. Humans don't change loyalties that easily. Witness the difficulty that natural conservatives (the past was the best) in changing perspective.

That's loyalty to an idea. Loyalty to a person tends to be a lot more fickle historically speaking.

 

[Waterfall]

So it seems there may be something to it if you read the bit about the tomb in Beirut, but it still would be nice if someone like Josephus or Tacitus had mentioned her. That would have sealed the deal.

That was my original search to see if any historians had mentioned her name....but unfortunately no.

 

[paradox3]

IMO it is plausible that the two crowds were distinct. I also find it believable that some of the people turned on Jesus, perhaps out of fear for themselves.

One of His disciples betrayed him to the Romans and one of them denied knowing him 3 times. And this is just among his 12 closest associates.

Why does the makeup of the crowds matter so much?

 

[BetteTheRed]

It matters to me. I have been among crowds. I have protested. I have always been on the side of the least; should i somehow, within the space of a week, find myself against, to the death, of someone I had thus far revered, I'd think, at least, THAT SOMETHING WAS f***ED UP.

 

[Waterfall]

Does anyone think there is any significance to the fact that the "notorious prisoner" who was with Jesus was named Barrabas or as Mathew says "Jesus Barrabas" and in the Aramaic translation, "Son of the Father"?

 

[Waterfall]

It matters to me. I have been among crowds. I have protested. I have always been on the side of the least; should i somehow, within the space of a week, find myself against, to the death, of someone I had thus far revered, I'd think, at least, THAT SOMETHING WAS f***ED UP.

Do you think that some or most of the crowd could have been supporters of Barrabas?

 

[BetteTheRed]

Bar Abbas? Son of the Father?

 

[BetteTheRed]

So, which "son" of which "Daddy"?

 

[BetteTheRed]

Today, although we all make mistakes, I find it easier to raise an eyebrow at an obvious goat. This is not necessarily a good thing, agreed @Ritafee ?

 

[paradox3]

It matters to me. I have been among crowds. I have protested. I have always been on the side of the least; should i somehow, within the space of a week, find myself against, to the death, of someone I had thus far revered, I'd think, at least, THAT SOMETHING WAS f***ED UP.

Well, lots of things are pretty f***ED UP in the Good Friday narrative. It is a brutal and horrific story; a difficult one to read and ponder. I am finding it interesting now that I chose the snippet about Pilate's wife for my reflection yesterday. I see it as a small touch of compassion and humanity in the midst of horror, although it ultimately doesn't alter the outcome.

To be considering the composition of the crowd as we have been doing only makes the story more disturbing and terrifying. It is a dark place to wind up in our meditation, but not inappropriate for our Easter vigil.

 

[paradox3]

So, which "son" of which "Daddy"?

That's the question, isn't it? Maybe the crowds calling for the release of Barabbas were actually crying out for Jesus. I don't really think so, but this detail certainly adds a touch of irony to the story.

 

[unsafe]

My view here ----

Her dream doesn't alter the outcome because the outcome that Tov Friday was to bring worked for all tov of all people who receive this Tov -----No one --no dream --no enemy -no mountain would have Moved God's plan out of the way to perfect completion ----What God wants to happen Will Happen -----The people in the crowd were suppose to request the freedom of Barabbas ----Pilate's wife dream had no effect on the outcome because it wasn't suppose to and just maybe that is one reason she had it to tell her husband and show it had no effect as it shows that nothing and no one will stand in God's way to bring about what He wants to happen in this physical world -----

This is the scripture in Matthew 26 when Jesus is arrested ---this tells you exactally what I am saying from Jesus Himself ---in verse 54

Jesus is speaking here ------
53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”


I say ----And the scriptures tell us that the crowd in those days were given voice as to who they wanted released by the Governor---

Matthew 27 -----15 Now it was the governor’s custom at the festival to release a prisoner chosen by the crowd.

I say ---so the crowd made the choice ----and the Governor complied ----and the Crowd made that choice because they were suppose to in accordance to God's Plan and to fulfil the scripture prophecy made in the Old Testament -----


The Bible is all about God --His Plan for this world and -His Fulfillment of His plan to His perfect completion --

If you read and study Revelations ----you will see that the Covenant He made with His Jewish Nation will be fulfilled --this Book is so great and shows the Love and Mercy and Grace and patience that God shows toward people who continue to reject Him in terrible horrible times --how He continually pulls on their hearts to come to Him ----
-It is mind blowing -----

 

[Luce NDs]

Are modern humans addicted to power capable of change ... but not likely to because of indoctrination to the concept that great power is best? There are positives and negatives and either side is capable of self destruction ... because of imbalance in the apotheus ... desire versus lighter thought?

The heavy handed rule! I rest with the myth ... thus gods are allowed rest in essence ... that "out there" sensationalism! Can one gather something to get a grip of? All reality remains uncertain or quantum! Deal with it ...

 

[paradox3]

@unsafe Scripture certainly tells us that Jesus foresaw both his death and resurrection, supporting the idea that these events were all part of God's plan. Of course, some scholars argue that with everything recorded after the fact, the gospel writers were able to spin the tale any way they wanted.

Personally, I am no longer interested in debating whether the bible is literally or metaphorically true. I went through a real metaphorical phase a few years ago, followed by a mythological one. These days, I am just interested in letting the bible speak to me as it will & I am focused on reading it as a spiritual practice.

When I was out for my walk this morning, I was trying to remember what Matthew has Jesus saying from the cross. The gospel accounts vary as far as this goes. For reflection today (Matt 27: 46):

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

 

[Luce NDs]

Recall in reality, god rests ... god exists out there in the abstract ... gentle love is a dream in a world driven mostly by hate of the lower classes ... an elite composition?

God bless the poor in essence of passions that have room for mindfulness ...