89 chapter project: Matthew

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So basically your view of the virgin birth is made necessary by your soteriology.
 
chansen said:
It's complete bulls**t.
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As far as I am concerned, the virgin birth story is not the weirdest one presented to us in Matthew's gospel.

My vote goes to the fish with the coin in its mouth to pay the taxes.

The head of John the Baptist on a platter is a close second.
 
And let ius remember that the virgin birth doctrine is justified by a reference to Isaiah 7:14, where the original Hebrew word is the word for young woman, and NOT the SPECIFIC Hebrew word for 'virgin.'
 
Jae said:
If Mary hadn't been made pregnant by the Spirit of God, Jesus would not have been able to die for the sins of others. The only one whose sins he could have died for would have been his own. So, yes chansen, it's important that Mary was a virgin.
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This makes no sense to me whatsoever.

But I am not sure I want to ask. :whistle:
 
Jae said:
If Mary hadn't been made pregnant by the Spirit of God, Jesus would not have been able to die for the sins of others. The only one whose sins he could have died for would have been his own. So, yes chansen, it's important that Mary was a virgin.
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Why could God not have impregnated a non-virgin? Does he have a fetish for virgins? Why the focus on whether or not Mary had any sexual history?

This sort of thing is the focus of insecure men who think they want "pure" women. Like a vintage Star Wars toy that is worth more in its original packaging. Why would an all-powerful deity care?

Oh right, this deity also liked burnt offerings. This deity is a complete ass.

So sure, if you have a complete ass of a deity who thinks virgins are somehow better than other women and like it when people sacrifice animals, I can see it. To me, it's like worshipping the sort of pathetic jerk who hunts with semi-auto weapons then hits on girls half his age at the bar.
 
Redbaron said:
And let ius remember that the virgin birth doctrine is justified by a reference to Isaiah 7:14, where the original Hebrew word is the word for young woman, and NOT the SPECIFIC Hebrew word for 'virgin.'
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In mentioning "the virgin" in Isaiah 7:14, the prophet speaks of a person God had already then chosen. Isaiah had in mind not just an unwed young woman but rather a young woman who had never had sex.
 
That isn't what Isaiah wrote, and that isn't what Isaiah meant. He meant a woman, expecting, in his own day, who would have a child as a sign to the King in his own day; that before the child was of age, the political crisis du jour would fizzle out. Besides, that kid was to be named Emmanuel. I realize that 'Emmanuel' is a title Jesus, but this was the son's NAME, not just a TITLE. This the prophecy refers to something in Isaiah's own time; and it was only some time after the events of Jesus' life that someone, using the Greek translation of the Hebrew text, reads into it a reference to Jesus the Christ.
 
chansen said:
Why could God not have impregnated a non-virgin? Does he have a fetish for virgins? Why the focus on whether or not Mary had any sexual history?
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This is a really good point, chansen. If God *ahem* wished to make a human female pregnant with God's child, there is no reason that the woman needed to be a virgin. Not that I can see.

Just to be clear, I do not subscribe to the theology of the virgin birth.

Nor to the theology of the immaculate conception. Did you know that this idea refers to Mary's conception? I just learned this a few years ago.
 
Jae said:
Joseph was Jesus' earthly father. What Jesus didn't have was a human biological father.
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A birth generated via one gamete is known as parthenogenesis; however, unknown in higher mammals.

I guess your whole theology changes and crumbles if Jesus was the bastard son of a rape-y Roman soldier named Pantera?
 
Mary received news from an angel that she, a virgin, would be a mother. This troubled her.

She knew only of the natural way by which children are born, and which requires two parents. She knew herself to be a virgin.

The angel accepted her question and gave her a good answer. God would make an exception. God would set aside nature's course.

The Spirit of God would cause Mary to produce a child without sex, out of her the virgin only. No human father would be present - there would not be any intercourse according to the blessing given to humanity.

The Spirit would come upon Mary. She would overshadow her, and so Mary's child would be called God's Son.
 
There are other stories of miraculous births, with just as much historical evidence of the virgin birth of Jesus. Buddha, Zarathustra, Augustus Caesar, and many others. The stories are there to be read; all you need to do is find them online. The story of Jesus' miraculous birth is hardly unique, sorry to disappoint.
Of course, for some people who firmly believe that Obama was born in Kenya despite valid, legal paperwork that says otherwise, mayhap solid historical reality isn't all that important.... they'll believe as they damn well please....
 
Of course. That was the common way to claim divinity in the 1st century and thereabouts.

More important question: why do we think this is important? Is it, as Jae says, that only if a person could biologically proven to be only 1/2 human, can they be the "true" "man-God" of Christianity?
 
Not quite, but you did maintain, somewhere upthread, will look for it if you won't, that it was only Jesus' half divinity that allowed him to be the saviour of humanity. Am I mis-stating your POV?
 
BetteTheRed said:
Not quite, but you did maintain, somewhere upthread, will look for it if you won't, that it was only Jesus' half divinity that allowed him to be the saviour of humanity. Am I mis-stating your POV?
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You are mis-stating it Bette, but I don't think intentionally. What I believe is, as I shared earlier in the thread, "Unlike the rest of us, Jesus had (and has) a dual nature - 100% human and 100% divine."
 
Oh, lookie, a Bible passage. Basically one that says that if you don't agree with OUR interpretation, you must be immature and/or unspiritual. In other words, we're right and you're wrong, because we say so. Nah nah nah.
How very spiritual and mature of you. :rolleyes:
 
I am always struck by the fact that many Christians rely on the old testament prophecies of the Old Testament to justify that Jesus is the predicted Messiah. If that is so why do we conveniently ignore the prophecy in the old testament that the Messiah will be a mortal born of human parents. The miracle to me is that the Holy Spirit endowed him (a human)with superior wisdom to lead Gods people.
 
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