1 Corinthians (various passages) - Paul is not a happy apostle

[BetteTheRed]

What does the division Jesus came to bring look like? Does anyone know?

I actually think that Jesus taught us not to be afraid...of questions.

 

[Mendalla]

What does the division Jesus came to bring look like? Does anyone know?

Here is the full section containing the verse Mystic quoted. Basically Jesus is talking about turning things upside down and how he will bring upset and conflict even to families (which, to be fair, it did at times). This is Jesus the militant Messiah looking to shake things up, not the pacifist some people portray.

49 “I have come to cast fire upon the earth, and how I wish it were already ablaze! 50 I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division! 52 From now on five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three; 53 they will be divided:

father against son
and son against father,
mother against daughter
and daughter against mother,
mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law
and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

I actually think that Jesus taught us not to be afraid...of questions.

To some degree. He was pretty sure of himself as the guy with the answers, though.

 

[BetteTheRed]

To some degree. He was pretty sure of himself as the guy with the answers, though.

They had a pretty good idea of what "kin-dom" looked like, for sure.

 

[Mystic]

They had a pretty good idea of what "kin-dom" looked like, for sure.

Remember, the Greek word for kingdom translates the Hebrew "malchut" which means both "reign" and "realm," not "kindom."
As God's reign, then "the kingdom is present in Jesus' exorcisms. As realm, it is future and entered at death. though that realm is invisibly present as another spiritual dimension on earth. Prooftexts for this can be provided if requested.

 

[paradox3]

I actually think that Jesus taught us not to be afraid...of questions.

Obliquely I guess. He certainly taught us to change up the way we do things.

 

[paradox3]

Remember, the Greek word for kingdom translates the Hebrew "malchut" which means both "reign" and "realm," not "kindom."
As God's reign, then "the kingdom is present in Jesus' exorcisms. As realm, it is future and entered at death. though that realm is invisibly present as another spiritual dimension on earth. Prooftexts for this can be provided if requested.

Some people like to change kingdom into kin-dom to lose the masculine connotation for God. Fair enough I suppose. Language always evolves.

Others like kin-dom because it emphasizes equality for all.

At any rate I think Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher and much of his message concerned end times.

 

[paradox3]

Are we straying too far away from Corinthians?

I adore 1 Corinthians 13. The first part about Love is so familiar from weddings even though it isn't specifically addressing romantic love. It was part of our wedding 46 years ago.

I read the entire chapter at my dad's funeral two years ago this month. Taken as a whole the chapter is a lovely reading for a funeral.

 

[Luce NDs]

Is divisive a divine contribution to get the game going and tha Ba'al rolling? It may resolve the enigma of androgenous behaviour in those with split decisions ... thus they depart to find other firds of similar plumes and feather bedding ...

The is something to the profundity and cephas nature of the great spotless Whal ... powers an Jude bang their head on it when falling from their high places ... sometime horses appearing as Centaurs ... big as it is! Monopolizing everything ... even some judgements as dispersed over advertising as one darkly ogo els ... Po go at IT? Mortals sometimes will assimilate nothing ... thus vast Eire ... sometimes Avasti as counters Swastika ... jousting windmills?

Divine airs ... sometimes they even do battle over hoos to be dormant ... when ... sleepy hollows? Trump is coming to NE, to the bewitching grounds at Salem for some befuddling over the labels! For all he thinks about the WOKE this could cause a spontaneous eruption ... and fire pits ... and still confusion would evole ... in a land where thought is denied; just for the great a Meri Can free 4 all!

Let the conflict begin ... as independant phoque are against getting things together even to abort bad IDE-as ... thus holes are everywhere in the system! Dense vacancies ...

 

[Mendalla]

Are we straying too far away from Corinthians?

Yeah, I think so. Good discussion though and it did come out of the general theme of division and unity so I won't grumble.

We used 1 Cor 13 in my wedding, too. Even had it read in Mandarin to honour my wife's culture.

Really, though, it is a call for Christians to recognize that while spiritual gifts are important, lack of love diminishes them.

I actually tackled the theme of unity after the '88 debate when I was doing pulpit supply in the summer. Bit ballsy I guess, but it was well-received. Forget what my text was (hey, it was 35 years ago and there's been a lot of water under the bridge). Might have been one of these.

Back to gifts, though. What gifts do you see/recognize? What ones do you possess? Tongues is kind of frowned upon in mainstream churches but Paul clearly sees it as a gift , even if he feels some are overrating it. But things like preaching and gifts related to leadership remain important in all churches.

 

[Luce NDs]

Gifts are things given... at one time said to be Grace and another said to be AD onus ... with the onus one is required to ponder the falling from the horse!

Therein response ... abilities? Lost skills ... come with the autonomous automation and automatons as administering without a thought but overblown desires ... there is some reference to that in the Disney PR classes! Golden para shoots ... few see eM the other way as the Me in the I! Imagine gross commissions!

Reflects badly ... on myself ...

 

[Mendalla]

In 1 Cor 12:28 Paul gives a sort of list. But some of these are a bit broad and could encompass a lot of more specific "gifts".

28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

Looking back on my church days, I guess I was a "teacher" since I preached (I am too humble to claim prophecy ) and helped in various ways (gift of helping). Later, in UUism, I had more of a leadership role. Maybe that's "guidance"?

 

[jimkenney12]

Sone gifts I include are compassion, wisdom, seeing the big picture and details simultaneously, able to be present to people, passion, charisma, learning other languages, musical gifts, creativity

I frequently use 1Corinthians 13 in funerals.

An unspoken challenge in chapter 12 is to dare to offer your gifts

 

[paradox3]

Years ago I attended a workshop which was based on a Spiritual Gifts Inventory that was more or less making the rounds at the time.

The list of gifts was very broad and included items such as organizational abilities, financial literacy and so on. Pretty much any skill set needed in the life of a church was included.

On one or two other threads recently, there has been some critique of those who attend church and seem to be uninterested in spiritual development. I am not sure how this judgement is made but I suspect a connection with attendance at retreats, study groups and so on.

We need both the Mary's and the Martha's I think.

 

[BetteTheRed]

We need both the Mary's and the Martha's I think.

And ideally, we are both at different times.

When it comes to Paul's list,

"Tongues" is an interesting gift, with interesting nuances. Learning a language, using it to make concise points, using it creatively to emotionally move people, are different skills.

What's the difference between teaching gifts and preaching gifts? Is the true gift of oratory largely dead?

What exactly are apostles today? How do the gifts of helping and guidance differ? What exactly is "healing"? And what constitutes a miracle, and who has a gift for that?

 

[paradox3]

The Mary and Martha story is always a good one to ponder. In a sermon quite a few years ago there was a suggestion that most of us have a Mary and a Martha inside of us

The balance between serving by doing and serving by listening can get tricky.

 

[Mendalla]

On one or two other threads recently, there has been some critique of those who attend church and seem to be uninterested in spiritual development.

I might kind of wonder why they are there, but in the end it's their life and decision. Not sure I paid much attention to those conversations because I don't recall the details. I do believe there is a place for people who just want to sit in a pew/chair. Even for "Christmas and Easter Christians".

The balance between serving by doing and serving by listening can get tricky.

I think we need to recognize that listening and being present is a gift of its own at times.

What's the difference between teaching gifts and preaching gifts? Is the true gift of oratory largely dead?

I don't think Paul even distinguished those, did he? See my quote from 1 Cor 12:28 above. For him, I imagine preaching fell under either prophecy or teaching depending on who was doing it.

What exactly are apostles today?

No idea, either. In the modern, democratic churches like the UCCan, I think all are apostles to some degree but you do usually have some who are more into developing and promoting the faith than others so maybe them?

How do the gifts of helping and guidance differ?

I read "helping" as people doing stuff for the community. In those days, providing a meeting place, getting the meal together, and so on. "Guidance" would be more helping people find their gifts, meet their needs, and such.

What exactly is "healing"?

Well, in some churches there is still a focus on healing. In others less inclined that way, providing support and assistance during times of physical or mental illness would fit in here, I think. A minister doing hospital visits, knitting shawls for those in need of support (as the UU fellowship did at one time), and such.

And what constitutes a miracle, and who has a gift for that?

That's really a loaded one, eh? I mean, there are the churches that still believe in literal miracles and faith healing. But in a church like the UCCan that does not have that tradition, I am actually not sure. Maybe those people who seem to be able to pull off amazing feats of healing or other services? The doctor who cures a seemingly incurable condition through hard work and research? I think the problem is that we don't see something like that as a miracle. A "miracle" in most people's minds is not supposed to involve work, just praying and maybe laying on hands or something.

All my random thoughts and responses, of course, YMMV.

 

[Mystic]

3 Common Misconceptions about 1 Corinthians 12-14:
(1) That the conflict pertains to the legitimacy of ever speaking in uninterpreted tongues
(2) That the insertion of chap. 13 changes the subject from the "gifts of the Spirit" to agape love
(3) That 12:29-30 teaches that the gifts of speaking in tongues and prophecy are special gifts reserved for the divinely favored few:
"Are all prophets?... Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues."
I can elaborate on each of (1)-(3).

Let me add that by far the high point of my life, spiritual or otherwise, was the astounding high ecstasy I experienced when speaking in tongues at age 16.
I doubt I'd even be a Christian today, were it not for that awesome day, which, among other things, totally transformed my mental capacity and academic performance.

 

[Mendalla]

For (1), I don't think I have ever read 1 Cor 12-14 that way. The conflict is about the role and place of speaking in tongues in the church, not their legitimacy which Paul never questions. He does suggest that if someone is speaking in tongues that there be someone else with the gift of interpretation there to interpret it for the others.

For (2) I think many people forget that 13 is actually a continuation of the discourse from 12, even though 12:31 is a clear lead-in to 13:1 if you read them together.

For (3) we have the argument about whether tongues and prophecy are "special" before. They don't, they are a manifestation of the spirit that manifests in other ways in other people. I think mainstream Christianity likely errs the other way, in taking a rationalist position of not recognizing tongues as a spiritual gift but as mental illness or trickery. It is more on the charismatic side that you see it being held up as a sign of being "with the Spirit" or whatever term they use.

I am interested in hearing your takes on these.

I suspect we have heard your story about speaking in tongues before. If something like that had happened to me at 16 (or even in my 20s), I might still be in a Christian church. It is really that direct experience that I think makes a difference moreso than reasoned apologetics. You are more likely to be drawn into faith by mystical experience or emotion than reasoned into it, I guess is what I am saying.

 

[paradox3]

How we are drawn into faith is another very good question. Being exposed to faith as a child can be a significant factor but this is not the case for everyone.

Is it a decision we make? Is it a response to a call from God?

And faith itself can be viewed as a gift.

 

[Mystic]

How we are drawn into faith is another very good question. Being exposed to faith as a child can be a significant factor but this is not the case for everyone.

Is it a decision we make? Is it a response to a call from God?

I like the testimony of famed author and Oxford Classics professor, C, S. Lewis in his autobiography "Surprised by Joy." He reports these 2 key moments in his transformation from atheist to devout Christian.
(1) He was riding a bus when he became obsessed with the thought that he resembled a lobster and was being challenged, "Are you willing to unbuckle your shell and see what happens?" At the time, he had no idea what that meant.
(2) He was being driven to Whipsnade Zoo. He says that when he got into the car, he didn't believe Jesus was the Son of God, but by the time he arrived at the zoo, he did! But he confesses, "Yet my mind wasn't really focused on this issue during the drive." This testimony implies that the gift of faith is at times mediated through an unconscious process that evolves during a quest for the truth.