The Christian Downfall ---The Error Of Balaam

[airclean33]

Hi Pr. jae-- Here is post and question to me..
airclean - are you saying that you and unsafe are receiving new - direct revelation from God? Airclean - do you ever hear God's audible voice speaking to you? Do you believe that you and unsafe are the only born again Christians on these forums?

AIRCLEAN---Am I saying that I and unsafe are receiving (new)- direct revelation from GOD. As I had already said to you. I am not sure how unsafe feels about this.As I am not in her head.My belief is that any time GOD speaks to someone .It is a revalation to man. That it is( NEW) may be. But I have the feeling GOD has said that what He speaks to many men and women. Do I ever here GOD'S voice audible speaking to to me ? As I"v said befor , the first time it happened . I thought some of my friends were pulling a joke on me. Yes it sounded real. Do I believe unsafe and I are the only Born again Christians on these forms? My answer is no. I hope this helps you Jae . Now please answer my queestion. --airclean33

 

[revsdd]

Hi Revsdd--We are not on the same channel , may be right Rev. You'v asked , if the Holy spirit tells me something that isn't consistent with the Bible or at least seems to be consistent with the Bible. I then have some work layed out for me. First , Did I hear it wrong , or mix it up? Am I reading more into GODS word than I should? I may also go to another Born again Christain, an ask an opinion. I also may pray GOD show me more so I may understand. We have more than one spirit trying to talk to us. As Peter learnt when talking to Jesus The Christ. In who do they say I am. I don't believe, I added, or have taken away, anything from the Book of Revelation . It seems funny you mite think so. Why would you think I did?--airclean33

I'm glad you interpret that text from the Book of Revelation properly, as referring only to the Book of Revelation. My impression was that you applied the verse to the entire Bible. So we'll drop that point. I also readily ackbowledge revelation beyond Scripture, but my argument with unsafe is that I believe all such revelation must be accepted humbly, in the full knowledge that one can make errors. She, on the other hand, seems unwilling to be humble enough to say that. Also, all Christians are "born from above," airclean. Being born from above is how one becomes a Christian. If you believe some Christians are born from above and some are not then you have created two classes of Christians, you have judged someone else's profession of faith, and you have gone against the work of the Holy Spirit, who is a spirit of unity.

 

[Jaebius]

And yet not everyone who calls themselves a Christian really is one. One reason I believe that is because it's part of my story. Back when I was a kid I called myself a Christian - because I went to church and Sunday School - participated in Family Cluster - sang in church choirs - etc. - but I had yet to be truly born from above. It wasn't until I was in my 20s that God made me his child.

 

[revsdd]

And yet not everyone who calls themselves a Christian really is one. One reason I believe that is because it's part of my story. Back when I was a kid I called myself a Christian - because I went to church and Sunday School - participated in Family Cluster - sang in church choirs - etc. - but I had yet to be truly born from above. It wasn't until I was in my 20s that God made me his child.

Calling oneself a Christian and being a Christian are two different things, I agree. But there is no such thing as a Christian who is not born from above.

 

[airclean33]

Hi Revsdd-- I believe salvaion comes by accepting Jesus as the Christ. This to me is but one step in your walk with GOD. The in filling of GODS Spirit is another. Then comes the time of teaching , learning the Walk of GOD. To me is a person a Christain when they accept Jesus as Lord ? I would have to say yes. We must crawl, befor we walk, walk befor we run, run befor we fly. fly befor???? Perhaps God would answer this one. --God Bless Steve.

 

[GeoFee]

But there is no such thing as a Christian who is not born from above.

This is questionable.

Many are conformed to Christianity without any experience of Christ or the Holy Spirit as living presence and influence. This is a pervasive and persistent problem facing persons adhering to the revelation of God in the Gospel of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit.

George

 

[Jaebius]

Hold the phone --- we can fly??

 

[Jaebius]

This is questionable.

Many are conformed to Christianity without any experience of Christ or the Holy Spirit as living presence and influence. This is a pervasive and persistent problem facing persons adhering to the revelation of God in the Gospel of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit.

George

George - How do you figure? I would certainly agree that one can become a Christian without fully knowing Christ - but I absolutely believe one must first have a true experience with Christ. Otherwise - how can one accept him?

 

[revsdd]

This is questionable.

Many are conformed to Christianity without any experience of Christ or the Holy Spirit as living presence and influence. This is a pervasive and persistent problem facing persons adhering to the revelation of God in the Gospel of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit.

George

I disagree on the basis that to "be conformed" to Christianity is not to be "a Christian." It is to make an outward claim with no inward transformation accompanying it. To be a Christian is to experience some form of conversion. Thus, all Christians have the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit is the agent of transformation.

 

[GeoFee]

Hi good looking and humble....

Let me try to understand.

...all Christians have the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit is the agent of transformation...

Are you saying all Christians have been transformed or are being transformed by the Holy Spirit? This being the case, might we not expect our time and place to overflow with the fruit of the Holy Spirit? Is that what we see?

George

 

[revsdd]

Transformation is never complete George. Not in this life anyway. We're all imperfect works in progress. But yes, I believe all Christians have begun the process of transformation under the influence of the Holy Spirit. As for fruits of the Spirit, I see them all over. I'm rather sad for you that you apparently don't.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Calling oneself a Christian and being a Christian are two different things, I agree. But there is no such thing as a Christian who is not born from above.

It's this sort of argument that makes me want to distance myself from the Christian institution, I have to say, guys. This is off topic from the thread...but when it gets into a pissing contest about I'm born from above, you're not...it starts to bug me. Because that 'born from above' experience is subjective and interpretive. 'Born from above' is more of an awakening and awareness, a calling to a purpose in the interest of unity - of justice, mercy and humility - than a state of legitimacy as a human being, or the state of being one of God's children.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

...and so, there are Christians and non Christians who have had such experiences/ awakenings. Because I believe there are Buddhists and Hindus (non Abrahimic) and people of other faiths, too, who have had such experiences. They don't abandon their faiths, nor should they if they don't feel called to. We don't control that. We shouldn't try to even correct anything if what they're doing brings peace and unity to the world - that is it's own evidence of God's work in the world. No label required. As is already happening, because we have the freedom to choose 'not' to become members of a religious institution, like we never have in the past... Some will never be called to become members of the institution of the Christian church, some will, many will be called out of it, at least, as it exists now..I believe...all while maintaing their faith...all in God's interest of reaching more people, for the purpose of healing divisions and 'turning swords into plowshares'. I don't believe God's purpose is to bring more people to organized religion so we can argue about who's a real Christian and who's from above. That misses the point. I believe it's to save humanity from our own demise regardless of organized religion.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

...sorry to be so hyper-critical myself. I guess I just get frustrated to be too boxed in when we put a label on something so hard to define, so personal and then judge people according to that label. The only thing we should be worried about us cooperating for a more peaceful unified and just world.

 

[revsdd]

It's this sort of argument that makes me want to distance myself from the Christian institution, I have to say, guys. This is off topic from the thread...but when it gets into a pissing contest about I'm born from above, you're not...it starts to bug me. Because that 'born from above' experience is subjective and interpretive. 'Born from above' is more of an awakening and awareness, a calling to a purpose in the interest of unity - of justice, mercy and humility - than a state of legitimacy as a human being, or the state of being one of God's children.

Not sure what bugs you. I agree with everything you wrote. That's my point essentially. Since we can't judge what's in another's heart, we can't say "born from above" or not. A Christian is a Christian. Having said that, not all who call themselves Christians display evidence of being born from above or of Christian faith. Think the members of Westboro Baptist Church, for example. Although they would say otherwise, I don't hesitate to say that while they call themselves Christians, they're simply not in any recognizable way.

How we express being born from above is subjective, I agree. And I said nothing about people of other faiths. This discussion is in a Christian context. My remarks are in that context. If they bug you, they bug you. No apology forthcoming from me.

 

[Seeler]

Calling oneself a Christian and being a Christian are two different things, I agree. But there is no such thing as a Christian who is not born from above.

I agree. I also think that some people may call themselves Christian who haven't been born from above. But I try not to judge. So, for me, if someone calls herself a Christian or indicates in some way that they are Christian, my default position is to believe them -- they are Christian and hence "born again" or the preferred "born from above" or "reborn in the Spirit".
Then I look for the fruits of the spirit - do they show love, compassion, humility, etc.?
Do they follow the Way of Jesus?
And I sometimes conclude that some who call themselves born again Christians do not show many Christian qualities. And some who would never consider themselves to be Christian may be well along the path.
It is not for me to judge - but we make judgments all the time. To me - if you indicate that you are a Christian, and you follow the Way, then you are a Christian, hence you have been 'born again'.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I guess I'm tired of the born again argument being used as an insult toward those who don't claim that. Not your fault, revsdd.

I suppose that I'm ever the idealist, so I get frustrated. I envision the big picture first...a world where we work together for each others' best interest, to help humanity thrive into the future. And then, look at putting the pieces together, never wavering from that goal. Christ, is the centre point. Christ is Peace. What does a whole world look like? Right now it's not. It's a world divided against itself, tragically. I won't believe that this world can't be whole someday. It never will be if strict religion or religious doctrine comes before faith in the ability to get to that whole place, though.

So what is the Jesus Way, then? Can Hindhus have it in their hearts already without labeling it such, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, atheists and agnostics. Can hippies and rock n' rollers and opera singers and construction workers and farmers and doctors and lawyers (even lawyers), all have it their hearts without labelling it or institutionalizing it? Can it just be? I believe we can. I believe it's called Peace. That's who Jesus was. He represents Peace and wholeness and healing. And his voice is calling through all people who want that for humanity's future. There's no prescribed "Way" except use your head and your heart to love one another, and let the Holy Spirit be your guide. It's our conscience.

 

[revsdd]

So what is the Jesus Way, then?

What is the Jesus Way?
Love God, love your neighbours, love one another and even love your enemies.
That doesn't mean never calling someone for bad behaviour. It does mean, to me, living a life of love, service and compassion directed outward even to those often seen as the least deserving.
Can others live the Jesus Way without being a professing Christian? Jesus says there will be surprises, so I'd have to say yes. And part of the surprise is that many who are the most strident about being real "born again" Christians are also going to find themselves surprised. Leave that to God to sort out.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I believe that's the way to best live, too. Can people who are not Christians, live it? I believe they can. And I suppose what I am saying is even atheists and agnostics can. They may not believe in the biblical God. But if they can love peace and support efforts toward peace...that's the essence of Christ, the ideal, as opposed to the label. God will tap them on the shoulder if God needs to. It's not up to me to convert anyone. Wherever there are people working for peace- which includes equality - God's already working and we shouldn't get in the way we should support no matter their religion or not. It's hard to articulate. But I really, really believe it. I feel it in my bones. In my whole being. The smallest examples of it move me. It's just frustrating because there's no consensus that we need to all work together for it. Not yet. We keep competing for our own individual interests. We get in the way of our own better selves.

 

[airclean33]

Hold the phone --- we can fly??

-- Once more Jae I thought this one would need an explanation. Heres GODS word Jae.

1Th 4:17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.