What would your ideal church look like?

[Mendalla]

Not church as in denomination, but congregation.

Is it small, maybe even a house church, or large, maybe even a "cathedral" (in scope, not literally)?

Is it very casual and informal or very formal, with high liturgy and lots of ritual? Or somewhere in between (this option applies to all the questions, there's no hard binaries here)?

Is there music and what kind?

Is there a "minister" or is it some kind of collective with members doing worship leadership, visitation, and so on?

Is it socially active in the community? Is it affirming/welcoming? And so on.

It could be one you attend or have attended, but could also be the one you dream of or would create if you were planting a church.

This is a thread to be creative, not right or wrong. Affordability doesn't matter, though if you have ideas around how your ideal church would be financed, let's hear them. Basically, if you have a vision that you think is cool, go for it.

 

[Luce NDs]

I suggest that is really hard question to be resolved being the perfection expected and the number in any congregation that would be opposed to at least of a few of the conditions you suggested. In reality there is no perfection ... only in the dark and mysterious abstract ... so we'd have to jump into that pit just to get started on the difficult journey ...
Further more there 'd be some that would be even violent about some even voicing an opinion ... on a fundamentally difficult resolution until we get out of the spot we're in just here and now ... idiotic and led by similar personalities ... if that is an indication, sign or icon ... of what's coming down the tube, shoot or sluice ...
Do you know how many fear the abstract as a darker portion of psyche and quite damp ... like a well to draw from? Jack used to draw from it ... earlier known as Jacobean (name generated in the mean, or medium). None of this allowed in ordinary, conflicted positions ... of who can fish where?

I recently had a leader complain my comments should not be voiced against powerful men because I didn't know them. He didn't know the bad situations that I worked in with several CEO's an even a VP ... I guess he didn't know me ... or furthermore where I'd been ...
It is not something easy to discuss without a tall myth ... it's how mythological personalities develop! Abstract even if you don't believe it mysterious!

 

[WhyCzar]

For starters:

If I had to call it a church - The Church Beyond Belief?

The goal would be a non-religious, unregistered, voluntary community focused on mutual aid principles.

Gatherings would be free of doctrine or state ties and meet ups would be in free or rentable venues.

 

[Luce NDs]

For starters:

If I had to call it a church - The Church Beyond Belief?

The goal would be a non-religious, unregistered, voluntary community focused on mutual aid principles.

Gatherings would be free of doctrine or state ties and meet ups would be in free or rentable venues.

And free of threats of inquisition, worry and anxiety about the forgoing that could affect your future state of mind ...

Thus in such imperfection ... Christian Bodies fail them ... only the humble survive ... those seldom observed ...

 

[Nancy]

I like a small church (50 people) with a multi-generational congregation. I like some traditional hymns but also some of the newer music from the newest United Church hymnbooks. I like fairly casual, but really enjoy a message that makes me think...gives me a new perspective on a familiar Bible story. I also would like a discussion time afterwards. (coffee or lunch maybe?) I would enjoy a variety of activities being offered throughout the week, including volunteer work for particular needs. I would be happy if the church group did not rely on too much legalese, but functioned with some structure but not restrictive structure. The church leaders would be responsive to the needs and wishes of the congregants. The congregants would also be thoughtful and respectful of the leaders. I would like to see the church building active all week long. There would be small groupings around particular interests so that one group could write letters to government regarding political issues (with congregation knowledge/support), and other groups could have prayer groups, Bible studies, young people's group. Maybe we would need a congregation of more than 50 for all this! I'll keep thinking. It's fun to have a church utopia.

 

[Jaebius]

Not church as in denomination, but congregation.

Is it small, maybe even a house church, or large, maybe even a "cathedral" (in scope, not literally)?

Is it very casual and informal or very formal, with high liturgy and lots of ritual? Or somewhere in between (this option applies to all the questions, there's no hard binaries here)?

Is there music and what kind?

Is there a "minister" or is it some kind of collective with members doing worship leadership, visitation, and so on?

Is it socially active in the community? Is it affirming/welcoming? And so on.

It could be one you attend or have attended, but could also be the one you dream of or would create if you were planting a church.

This is a thread to be creative, not right or wrong. Affordability doesn't matter, though if you have ideas around how your ideal church would be financed, let's hear them. Basically, if you have a vision that you think is cool, go for it.

Am still grieving the loss of the church we left after six years at the end of August. I loved that church. More specifically, I loved the cellgroup we were in within the larger body. We were 10+ people in a larger church of thousands. We were somewhat casual and informal - in dress, business casual was the norm. We'd meet, often before food and beverage, sing praise songs mostly from the 70s-90s, pray, read the Bible, say the Apostles' Creed and have my sermon. It was a time and place of friendship that I'll always remember and treasure.

That was church for us in the past. Some day soon we'll have a new church home - which may be similar and may be somewhat different. But today we just feel lost

 

[Mendalla]

We were 10+ people in a larger church of thousands.

I always like approaches like this. Even the much (much much much) smaller UU fellowship here has small groups like this. Or tries to. They've had mixed success over the years. It would be even more important in big churches like the one you describe or North London Community here (though I don't know how big that congregation actually is, just that the building is massive by London standards).

 

[Jaebius]

I always like approaches like this. Even the much (much much much) smaller UU fellowship here has small groups like this. Or tries to. They've had mixed success over the years. It would be even more important in big churches like the one you describe or North London Community here (though I don't know how big that congregation actually is, just that the building is massive by London standards).

Our approach came about because there was a small number of interested English speakers in the larger Korean church. I was the fourth English Ministry Pastor. People from South Africa and the US preceded me. Many of our cellgroup members also attended the church's Korean language services.

Why does the UU fellowship have small groups?

 

[chansen]

High speed quads, good mix of consistent pitch groomers and interesting steeps.

 

[Jaebius]

High speed quads, good mix of consistent pitch groomers and interesting steeps.

Love that vision, chansen. There's something eschato about a mountain with just the right balance of smooth groomers for peaceful reflection and steep runs that remind you you're not actually in control

My ideal church has a similar feel. Deep theo that gives solid footing. Enough beauty and mystery to stir the heart. A few challenging doctrines that keep us humble!

Every trail's under the Mountain Creator's care.

 

[Luce NDs]

How could we have all that and keep things sacred, closed, unchanged and pious about a rapid growth rate for mercenary purposes?

Isn't that like stoned, sacrosanct and intoxicating as getting too much of a familiar thing? Nothing odd or curious for the conscience ... thus it would tend to doze off una-WOKE! As if no one knew in the first place ... primal-like! Moving like a hostile monster? They say some human systems develop that way ... like data that should be scattered so as to give folks vocations, etc.

Alas according to Harold Bloom we are not satisfied that way ... avarice is the big thing ... all else is diminished ... thus we should be humbled!

 

[jimkenney12]

I like a small church (50 people) with a multi-generational congregation. I like some traditional hymns but also some of the newer music from the newest United Church hymnbooks. I like fairly casual, but really enjoy a message that makes me think...gives me a new perspective on a familiar Bible story. I also would like a discussion time afterwards. (coffee or lunch maybe?) I would enjoy a variety of activities being offered throughout the week, including volunteer work for particular needs. I would be happy if the church group did not rely on too much legalese, but functioned with some structure but not restrictive structure. The church leaders would be responsive to the needs and wishes of the congregants. The congregants would also be thoughtful and respectful of the leaders. I would like to see the church building active all week long. There would be small groupings around particular interests so that one group could write letters to government regarding political issues (with congregation knowledge/support), and other groups could have prayer groups, Bible studies, young people's group. Maybe we would need a congregation of more than 50 for all this! I'll keep thinking. It's fun to have a church utopia.

The only thing I would add is eagerness to invite, welcome, and include others.

 

[Luce NDs]

The only thing I would add is eagerness to invite, welcome, and include others.

Voluntary so as to allow freedom of belief according to experiences ... there are numerous experiences that some stoics will never believe ... try and tell tyrannical authority anything ... I've tried and retreated to the underside to the fabric ... a story? Truth just is not popular in my impressions even though I don like ide ...

Abstract?

 

[BetteTheRed]

Our church membership is between 150 and 175, average weekly prime time attendence is over 100, but not much more, unless baptism or other special occasion. Seems to be a sweet spot between too big for true community and too small for effectiveness. We have a substantial amount of small group participation, from bible studies to baking bees.

We are greying but have a significant middle aged and young parent bulge which may help. We were the first Affirming congregation in our City, and have a substantial social justice focus, particularly around homelessness and food insecurity.

I don't think a congregation made up of humans can ever be perfect or ideal. The property team is a clesterfeck of insecurity and dubious decisions, lol, but I only know this because I sleep with a member of same, but the building is resilient, lol, and was sturdily built by a couple of generations of members.

 

[Luce NDs]

Our church membership is between 150 and 175, average weekly prime time attendence is over 100, but not much more, unless baptism or other special occasion. Seems to be a sweet spot between too big for true community and too small for effectiveness. We have a substantial amount of small group participation, from bible studies to baking bees.

We are greying but have a significant middle aged and young parent bulge which may help. We were the first Affirming congregation in our City, and have a substantial social justice focus, particularly around homelessness and food insecurity.

I don't think a congregation made up of humans can ever be perfect or ideal. The property team is a clesterfeck of insecurity and dubious decisions, lol, but I only know this because I sleep with a member of same, but the building is resilient, lol, and was sturdily built by a couple of generations of members.

Humanity is imperfect and thus cannot be certain ... although some claim to be God's ... even though they cannot be sure ... because of all that is beyond them ... unless you are a dream ...

Dreams seem to be a problem for real people ... the can't imagine it and usually will not read anything iffy!

 

[Nancy]

Our little church is kept up by very practical minded people. They fix things on their own if possible. And they deal with building problems as soon as they come up. Our only major problem is the design makes it very difficult and too expensive to make our basement accessible.

 

[Luce NDs]

The perfect church is a dream and part of the abstract ... as nothing is perfect as justice, fairness and mercy all fail us as everyone lloks for profit no a fair trade. It brings into the question ... the gift or given for the day.

Just think a mortal can only stand so much light in a piece of time, or you end up arid and just a shadow of you former self in the san's of time ... they do shift and whisper as if hiding something in the backstory. Always another layer there ... as if a thread can just thermally decompose ... see that flash?

There the story was gone ... forgotten because of our limited capacity and how the great mystery extracts our experiences ... we are just simple carriers ... like missals if you read into the fore story ... pres. or a'priory ... primal? There's monkey in there somewhere for processing ...

What does that mean? I could never know for sure (4-shore) because of all the mendacity ... but we sometimes get a chance to stroll the strands ...

Wandering on the beach? That too ... like under the dashboard ... up there lights going by almost stopped as they study all the errors and Eire ... there is a reason ... seems some considerable discomfort is required to cause one to ask or whine ...

 

[Mendalla]

Our only major problem is the design makes it very difficult and too expensive to make our basement accessible.

I don't think the Unitarian fellowship has one. Everything, even the service room where the furnace and hydro panel are, seemed to be on one floor. So maybe just a slab or something. Great for accessibility since we didn't need elevators, just ramps. We did learn a few lessons when we had an interim minister with a disability (she used a scooter to get around) which let us improve it.

My family church in Kitchener had the same problem as yours, though. Plus the place was in the side of a slope. The front was okay for accessibility since the main floor entrance was level with the ground. But at the back, the main floor back door required climbing steps while the ground level back door by the parking lot entered a landing on the staircase between main and basement. Oh, and the basement itself was kind of a split level, with the "gym" (we called it that but it was really a big multipurpose room, even had a commercial kitchen) lower than the rest. They finally put in an elevator for the main floor back entrance after I left but not sure what they did to make the basement more accessible. Have not been in that church in decades (my middle brother's wedding, I think, was the last time).

 

[Nancy]

We have a ramp to the sanctuary. But the stairs to the basement are quite narrow. We can't even put a chair lift in. An elevator would be far to expensive for our small congregation. One idea has been to hold some social events in the accessible sanctuary rather than the basement.

 

[Mendalla]

One idea has been to hold some social events in the accessible sanctuary rather than the basement.

The family church actually had a large Sunday School room upstairs that did get used for social events, too. There was another kitchen on the main floor close to it but it was quite small and cramped so was not quite as good for meals as the big room downstairs. That kitchen was more for morning coffee, preparing communion, that sort of thing, rather than serious cooking.