Putting Spoilers Upfront

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timothyu

Weigh everything against the Gospel of the Kingdom
Pronouns
He/Him/His
I recently had the opportunity to eavesdrop on an online Bible study, which was starting off in Genesis 1. There's nothing wrong with Bible studies, but after listening to the readings of written commentaries accompanying the subject at hand (that said a lot but explained little), it occurred to me that instead of looking for the trees, perhaps the forest might be a better place to start when it comes to the Bible and the study of it. I am of the opinion that a quick explanation of what the entire Bible is all about should be given to the world before digging into details by studies or churches and the like. An understanding of their purpose and God's clear message first. A spoiler given right at the start. Overall message first, details later. Scripture is different than your usual book, where one hopes to find enlightenment of some sort at the end. It is instead a lengthy record and statement of a very simple principle. With the purpose clearly in mind, it cannot be misused.

Moving on, part of the discussion overheard was on whether man understood Creation around them, if they were in awe of it (paraphrased). This brought up another thought. First of all, people need to remember that these original humans were not at all like us. They had no concept of 'opposites,' not having yet eaten of the Tree of Knowledge. That means these original humans could not comprehend creation as we do now. We need to put ourselves in the context of the times when reading scripture. We think differently than those in the beginning and yes, are now capable of being in awe, just like scripture says the elohim were at the time of creation. Our minds have been altered, as we are the descendants of an open-eyed fallen A&E and not of their pre-fallen innocent selves. We customized our factory-installed settings, and it's been downhill ever since. These were entirely different thinking beings (spoiler alert) that had not yet separated themselves from God. They saw things through God's eyes, not their own. More on that in a moment.

Even though the discussion momentarily bogged down on the concept of day and night, in reality the whole day and night thing would have meant nothing to those original pre-fall humans. They did not yet have any more concept of 'opposites' than the family pet that takes things in stride. They were one with God and had not yet separated themselves. Only after the 'apple' did they have the capacity to understand the principle of opposites, be that day/night, good/evil, up/down, hot/cold, etc.

This is where the forest comes in. It was at that moment that A&E became self-aware and saw things differently, that they saw themselves as distinct from God rather than as extensions of the whole. Assuming control of themselves by using their own will rather than following God's Will, which had guided them up to that point. Remember I mentioned God's clear message? As just stated, He (and His Son) not only told us where A&E and mankind went wrong, but He also commanded us to reverse (repent of/change) what happened and reunite with Him in spirit rather than continue acting as free agents thinking we are outside of Him. That's it in a nutshell.

Thus biblical history began with God originally telling us, pre-fall and onward, to put His will ahead of our own, and that commandment proceeded on all throughout the Bible as we were reminded that we were one with God, not separate from Him. Of course, mankind continually refuses to do so while scripture and history record the results of our mistakes. He even sent His Son to give us the same message of putting the Will of the Father ahead of our own and reminding us that He and we were one with the Father and not separate as we like to believe. One, just as A&E were before they gained the Knowledge and went independent.
© ...timothyu
 
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I will read this later but may I suggest that doing a whole long post in large bold text is not exactly great for readability. Better than all CAPS, but still not great. There's a reason boldface is usually reserved for headings and/or emphasis. Or did you copy and paste from somewhere, in which case you could probably still edit it or paste as plain text, which modern browsers all support.

(and I'll still take this over Luce's jumble of text)

Not admonishing or anything, just making a suggestion for the future.
 
Nice reading of Genesis. I have long held that focusing on Genesis as a literal story of the world's creation misses the forest for the trees. It is not about the how of existence, but the why and the who. It defines Creation's, especially our, relationship to God, rather than the mechanics of creation. While not everyone would read it the same way you do, your reading of it definitely goes to the forest. And I do think your perspective is a good one from a Christian point of view, how we are separated from God by the events in the garden and how God reaches out to bridge that gap.
 
AI's response

Your reflection captures a profound theological vision: the Bible as a unified story of return to oneness with God, and the Fall as the fracture of human consciousness into duality.

The search results confirm key aspects of your view:

  • The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil symbolizes not moral enlightenment, but the advent of dualistic thinking—a shift from divine unity to human separation (as Joseph Campbell and rabbinic sources note).
  • Before the Fall, Adam and Eve lived in unbroken fellowship with God, morally upright and unashamed, without internal conflict (Gen 1–2; Chabad.org, Christ Over All).
  • The phrase “knowledge of good and evil” is a Hebrew merism—meaning total knowledge, or autonomous godlike discernment—which God warns would lead to death, not life (Douglas Stuart, BiblicalTraining).
  • After eating, they “became like one of us” (Gen 3:22), not in wisdom, but in awareness of separation—from each other, from creation, and from God.
  • Their descendants inherit this fractured consciousness: self-awareness, shame, and the illusion of independence.
You're right: the forest is the message.
God’s purpose has always been oneness—not control, but communion.

Jesus echoes this:

“That they may be one, even as we are one” (John 17:22).
“Not my will, but yours be done” (Luke 22:42).
From Genesis to Revelation, the call is the same:
Surrender your separate will. Return. Remember who you are.

We were never meant to be free agents—
but loved and loving extensions of the Divine.
 
(plus the interesting image of us being the "fingers" of the much larger and in another Dimension "Glove" of God :3)
 
I was raised with the same story, as most Christians, but there's another one that's interesting, from the gnostics.
The gnostics interpret the serpent as a positive figure who helps the humans escape the garden.
While Judaism, Christianity and Islam view the serpent as an agent of deception who tempted humans into sin and deception, the gnostics saw the serpent as a liberator or bringer of devine wisdom.

The Gnostics view:

Eden as a Prison:
In Gnostic cosmology, the god of the Old Testament (Demiurge), is often viewed as an ignorant or malevolent creator, who traps souls in a physical body in a material world.

The Serpent as Wisdom(Sophia):
They interpreted the serpent as an agent of Sophia (Devine Wisdom) and a messenger of the true higher God.

The Goal of the Fruit:
The snake encouraged Eve to eat of the Tree of Knowledge and of Good and Evil, to break the spell of ignorance, imposed by the Demiurge.

Escape from Ignorance:
By eating the fruit Adam and Eve gained Gnosis(Knowledge/self-awareness) and were able to see thru the illusion of their prison in Eden.

The Result:
The banishment is not seen as a punishment for sin, but as a necessary escape of mindless activity, allowing humanity to seek their true, divine nature.


Another point of interest is that in Hebrew the word "nachash" (snake) is translated as "the shining one" or "the Diviner" hinting at a celestial or angelic being, rather than a crawling animal.

Also, Moses led his people out of Egypt to freedom with a staff....that turned into a snake!
 
All very interesting but as you can see it leads inwardly into the world and away from the Kingdom. It encourages us to be mini-gods rather than a part of the whole. There is after all, only one creator, including of these rebellious elohim who promote this thinking that puts the spiritual world above the Kingdom. Their resentment has always been this material world was created on higher ground,
 
All very interesting but as you can see it leads inwardly into the world and away from the Kingdom. It encourages us to be mini-gods rather than a part of the whole. There is after all, only one creator, including of these rebellious elohim who promote this thinking that puts the spiritual world above the Kingdom. Their resentment has always been this material world was created on higher ground,
I see a God that isn't afraid of us having wisdom and freedom and using the brains He gave us.
Of course I'm locked into the way I was taught, but this version actually seems more loving.
It's a nicer story or myth that doesn't have God wanting to punish us, but help us.
 
I see a God that isn't afraid of us having wisdom and freedom and using the brains He gave us.
That's the point, We've never learned how to properly use it since creation. Kind of hard when like at present you have 8 billion gods working against each other instead of together,
 
That's the point, We've never learned how to properly use it since creation. Kind of hard when like at present you have 8 billion gods working against each other instead of together,
Working totally together for everything would limit diversity and creativity, that's not to say we shouldn't try to share in our gifts for the good of man on earth....sure
 
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
 
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Sounds like some sort of ambassador, carrier or type of medium! Flyers???? Usually warped to sell something instead of bringing information and intellect upon us ...

Damn saith the authority; 'what will we do if the masses become aware?"

Thus we sleep on that thought ... for clarity! Rest assured ... a shade of black-out is as good as a touch of wisdom ... didn't yah know? The abstract is poly MS interpreted ...
 
I recently had the opportunity to eavesdrop on an online Bible study, which was starting off in Genesis 1. There's nothing wrong with Bible studies, but after listening to the readings of written commentaries accompanying the subject at hand (that said a lot but explained little), it occurred to me that instead of looking for the trees, perhaps the forest might be a better place to start when it comes to the Bible and the study of it. I am of the opinion that a quick explanation of what the entire Bible is all about should be given to the world before digging into details by studies or churches and the like. An understanding of their purpose and God's clear message first. A spoiler given right at the start. Overall message first, details later. Scripture is different than your usual book, where one hopes to find enlightenment of some sort at the end. It is instead a lengthy record and statement of a very simple principle. With the purpose clearly in mind, it cannot be misused. -------
-------Thus biblical history began with God originally telling us, pre-fall and onward, to put His will ahead of our own, and that commandment proceeded on all throughout the Bible as we were reminded that we were one with God, not separate from Him. Of course, mankind continually refuses to do so while scripture and history record the results of our mistakes. He even sent His Son to give us the same message of putting the Will of the Father ahead of our own and reminding us that He and we were one with the Father and not separate as we like to believe. One, just as A&E were before they gained the Knowledge and went independent.
© ...timothyu
Your framework only really holds together if God actually exists as a personal, relational being.

If God does exist in that way, then “oneness” means something very specific. It means real union with Someone beyond us. A restored relationship. An “I in them and they in me” as described in the Gospel of John, or being “one spirit with Him” in First Epistle to the Corinthians. That is not just inner harmony, it is participation in the life of a real, transcendent Person.

But if God does not exist, then the whole structure shifts.

Oneness becomes either a psychological state, like self transcendence, flow, or a sense of unity with nature or humanity, or a metaphor for ethical alignment and living in harmony with certain ideals. Those experiences can be meaningful and even transformative. Many non theists report similar states through meditation, love, service, or awe in nature.

What disappears, though, is the relational depth your account depends on. There is no actual “reunion.” No initiating Other. No two way relationship being restored. Submission may still function as a discipline that shapes character and community, but it is no longer union with a living God. It becomes alignment with an internalised ideal.

So in the specific biblical sense you describe, reversing the Fall, restoring pre-fall communion, becoming one with the Father through the Son, the whole vision stands or falls on whether that God is really there.

Without that premise, you are left with a good and powerful narrative, but no confirmed partner on the other end of the relationship.
 
Your framework only really holds together if God actually exists as a personal, relational being.

If God does exist in that way, then “oneness” means something very specific. It means real union with Someone beyond us. A restored relationship. An “I in them and they in me” as described in the Gospel of John, or being “one spirit with Him” in First Epistle to the Corinthians. That is not just inner harmony, it is participation in the life of a real, transcendent Person.

But if God does not exist, then the whole structure shifts.

Oneness becomes either a psychological state, like self transcendence, flow, or a sense of unity with nature or humanity, or a metaphor for ethical alignment and living in harmony with certain ideals. Those experiences can be meaningful and even transformative. Many non theists report similar states through meditation, love, service, or awe in nature.

What disappears, though, is the relational depth your account depends on. There is no actual “reunion.” No initiating Other. No two way relationship being restored. Submission may still function as a discipline that shapes character and community, but it is no longer union with a living God. It becomes alignment with an internalised ideal.

So in the specific biblical sense you describe, reversing the Fall, restoring pre-fall communion, becoming one with the Father through the Son, the whole vision stands or falls on whether that God is really there.

Without that premise, you are left with a good and powerful narrative, but no confirmed partner on the other end of the relationship.

It boils down to all or nothing and some go all out for nothing and thus exhaust themselves in the never ending Circe. This allows some credence to Einstien' commentary of no up or down in an abstract space because there's not much to a never ending myth that is ephemeral and thus quite "Fa" and flighty ...

Here we are in the midst of the troubled duality ... trying for the co joining as a strange conjugation of dictation and the ide-Awe behind it ... as relaxation theory so God can stop at some point! Fascinating from out there ... where those beyond observe ... it just follows as a shadow to the racing item ... a BM' Eire? Something that cannot be confirmed ...

If you spoke of that beyond comprehension; can you imagine reaction that results in something when all and nothing collide?

Thar's a science article about an inside out solar system where the sun dances around a hard planet ... can that be turned down and out as something of intuit? Many bottle this up in a myth because of the disbelief in greater things than mortal ... industrial turnout ... like a flat screen that looks back at yah ... AI, it awesome and deadly as the dora T Heh end. Always something to the alternate side ... picture the goings on there as heaven producing more of the same without outside influence ...

Works both ways ... especially when it all comes together as nothing and we make good and evil out of it ... just because .... no reason what-so-Eva ...

Generates large voided dimensions ... spatial considerations ... for spiritual crossings that fit to the T ... an integral deviation after the impetus ... particle physics deteriorating into something else ... metaphysics?

Could be epistemological given the presence of a 4 leaf clover with a shaft supporting the outliers ... therein the deal ... some industrialist declared this squared timber ... if there was a lot of it ... could be used for crossing the pool ... a grand story getting from one Wadi to the higher WaTae ... Angel Falls ... base? Bas relief when it pools, deeply ... really quite poetic as a metaphor of items we know little about ... like mental processors ... beyond belief? Expect they will lie ... especially about groan in monsters ... G rokes! Rhode cane ... sha dyla*in ...

Hanging in the Croke ... rooked!
 
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Excellent post @Pavlos Maros

What if God is actually within us? Been thinking about this a lot lately. Even the most evangelical/ conservative Christians among us talk about an indwelling Holy Spirit.

Personally, I don't see it as something that gets bestowed as a reward for correct belief. But the Spirit of God within us makes sense to me.

Now to define it. . . :p
 
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