Back to Those Tangents: This One's About Would-Be Singers.

[Pavlos Maros]

I've recently started writing songs. I'm not going to say whether I think I'm any good, that's not the point of this tangent. But I did join a couple of Facebook groups anonymously. I have a name, just keeping quiet.

However, scrolling through these groups, you quickly notice something staggering: people posting themselves singing, genuinely believing they sound amazing, when the reality is often very different. The dissonance is astounding. The gap between self-perception and actual ability is huge. It's almost like a religion.

This is a textbook case of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Those with minimal skill massively overestimate their talent, while anyone competent either underestimates themselves or stays quiet. The loudest, least skilled voices dominate the feed, creating a feedback loop where mediocrity is mistaken for normalcy or even excellence.

Add to that poor recording setups, bad microphones, and the lack of real-time feedback, and the illusion becomes almost complete. People double down on their belief that they sound good, rationalising criticism or ignoring it entirely. It's confidence without competence, amplified by social media, a phenomenon simultaneously hilarious, tragic, and fascinating.

In short, in these anonymous corners of the internet, the Dunning-Kruger effect isn't just present, it's rampant.

Do you have a view as to why?

 

[Luce NDs]

In our erroneous sense of high we need a correction?

That's depression when the line goes dippy ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Such pathways may cause bone rattling ...

 

[WhyCzar]

In short, in these anonymous corners of the internet, the Dunning-Kruger effect isn't just present, it's rampant.

Do you have a view as to why?

Lack of self awareness?

 

[Luce NDs]

Lack of self awareness?

Is this something like delinquent WOKE-ness?

 

[BetteTheRed]

There are two phenomena at play here, Pavlos:

i) humans do not know how their own voice sounds.
ii) we over-estimate how much we can fix this

 

[Waterfall]

There are many wannabe singers that turned into brilliant musicians, wonderful songwriters, and producers, amongst many other avenues that they could be led to engage in, despite them not having a a voice that impressed anyone.
Usually if someone isn't cutting the grade with their singing....the audience won't be there.
Although I can think of a few singers that have less than perfect voices and actually became well known successful performers.
Sometimes imperfection turns into brilliance.
And then there's those with absolutely no talent in any musical area but they like being around music and musicians and want to be one....they should probably be encouraged to the bus for the band...lol

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I've recently started writing songs. I'm not going to say whether I think I'm any good, that's not the point of this tangent. But I did join a couple of Facebook groups anonymously. I have a name, just keeping quiet.

However, scrolling through these groups, you quickly notice something staggering: people posting themselves singing, genuinely believing they sound amazing, when the reality is often very different. The dissonance is astounding. The gap between self-perception and actual ability is huge. It's almost like a religion.

This is a textbook case of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Those with minimal skill massively overestimate their talent, while anyone competent either underestimates themselves or stays quiet. The loudest, least skilled voices dominate the feed, creating a feedback loop where mediocrity is mistaken for normalcy or even excellence.

Add to that poor recording setups, bad microphones, and the lack of real-time feedback, and the illusion becomes almost complete. People double down on their belief that they sound good, rationalising criticism or ignoring it entirely. It's confidence without competence, amplified by social media, a phenomenon simultaneously hilarious, tragic, and fascinating.

In short, in these anonymous corners of the internet, the Dunning-Kruger effect isn't just present, it's rampant.

Do you have a view as to why?

Maybe they’re just having fun. I’ve seen the same thing at karaoke - went with my cousin a year or so ago for the first time in years -and I’ve been one of the bad singers before lol. I didn’t take it too seriously. If anything I was embarrassed about my voice but also took the challenge and had some fun. If people want to role play their rock star/ pop star fantasies, so what? If they just feel like singing their heart out for someone to hear them express themselves or for emotional release, good for them. You can choose not to listen (unless it’s karaoke. Bring noise cancelling earplugs or something, if you think it might be necessary! But some well practiced amateurs are pretty good!)

Having the courage make fools of ourselves all in good fun and laugh about it - a lost art? Trump has something to do with it. Because he’s ridiculous (which is easy for comedians to mock) but what he’s doing is not in good fun, it’s scary - he can’t handle being made fun of - and he himself has a bad sense of humour. Maybe it makes people take everything more seriously? Maybe it breeds more narcissism. Who knows, but bad singing is the least of our problems. Let’s have peace and equality, and I’d be happy with people singing badly all they want. (I realize this is a tangent on your tangent.)

Then, I think someone else said - there are people with “classically bad” singing voices who’ve become iconic. Like Bob Dylan, for example. I mean, I like some punk rock - it’s expressive - and they barely sing.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

It’d be fun to write songs for somebody else to sing.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Maybe they’re just having fun. I’ve seen the same thing at karaoke - went with my cousin a year or so ago for the first time in years -and I’ve been one of the bad singers before lol. I didn’t take it too seriously. If anything I was embarrassed about my voice but also took the challenge and had some fun. If people want to role play their rock star/ pop star fantasies, so what? If they just feel like singing their heart out for someone to hear them express themselves or for emotional release, good for them. You can choose not to listen (unless it’s karaoke. Bring noise cancelling earplugs or something, if you think it might be necessary! But some well practiced amateurs are pretty good!)

Having the courage make fools of ourselves all in good fun and laugh about it - a lost art? Trump has something to do with it. Because he’s ridiculous (which is easy for comedians to mock) but what he’s doing is not in good fun, it’s scary - he can’t handle being made fun of - and he himself has a bad sense of humour. Maybe it makes people take everything more seriously? Maybe it breeds more narcissism. Who knows, but bad singing is the least of our problems. Let’s have peace and equality, and I’d be happy with people singing badly all they want. (I realize this is a tangent on your tangent.)

Then, I think someone else said - there are people with “classically bad” singing voices who’ve become iconic. Like Bob Dylan, for example. I mean, I like some punk rock - it’s expressive - and they barely sing.

I get what you mean, and yeah, people having fun is great. I am not knocking the joy of singing or the release it gives, and I am definitely not saying people should be perfect before they share anything. My point was more about the gap between how some folks think they sound and how they actually sound, which can be fascinating to watch. It is not about stopping anyone from enjoying themselves, just noticing the psychology behind it.

Karaoke is a perfect example, plenty of people lean into the silliness, others think they are secretly the next chart topper, and both sides can be entertaining in different ways.

You are right too, some iconic artists do not have conventionally great voices. Bob Dylan, half of punk, loads of indie singers, all proof that character and expression matter as much as technique. That is not really what I was talking about though, I was pointing more at the confidence without the competence, not the expressive stuff.

And fair enough on the wider cultural tangent, but I am keeping mine simple. People can sing their hearts out, no issue there, I am just commenting on the wild self-belief some folks carry into those videos. It is a funny little corner of the internet, nothing more.

It’d be fun to write songs for somebody else to sing.

It is what I'm trying to do. We will see what the future brings.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Good luck with the song writing! Keep us posted. (Let us know if you write a hit song!)


Do you think narcissism has anything to do with Dunning-Kruger? It can also be the reverse.

It reminds me of a short documentary/ news piece I watched years ago. Overall, American high-schoolers scored poorly, academically, compared to their peers around the world. However, they scored far higher than others on confidence level.

Yup. I think character adds immeasurable quality to traditionally not great singing. Folk singers, too. Woody Guthrie, some Mississippi Delta blues, etc. In Canada, Stompin’ Tom Connors. We have Celine Dion…excellent singing voice. I can’t stand it though. (That said, she’s been ill and I wish her better health.)

There are some bad singers I’d rather listen to than some diva presenters with excellent voices. Except Bowie (and some would debate that his voice even sounded good. I think it was amazing. Character and quality.)

 

[KayTheCurler]

If I am honest I say I don't know what I sound like when I sing. Never noticed anyone wincing, never been asked to sing.
Without a doubt the worst singing I ever heard was the priest at my teen years Anglican church. Services were sung to Anglican chant and the poor guy had a voice that wandered all over several octaves in various keys. I found it almost painful..

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

If I am honest I say I don't know what I sound like when I sing. Never noticed anyone wincing, never been asked to sing.
Without a doubt the worst singing I ever heard was the priest at my teen years Anglican church. Services were sung to Anglican chant and the poor guy had a voice that wandered all over several octaves in various keys. I found it almost painful..

It’d be tough to have a bad singing voice and be expected to lead a group in singing because it’s part of the role. But it might make a difference if they acknowledged ahead of time that singing wasn’t their best skill?

 

[paradox3]

Some people claim that anyone can be taught to sing passably. I wonder if this is true?

Of course it would be necessary to recognize there is a problem and seek out instruction.

 

[Luce NDs]

Always recall that if there is an up it must come down ... and the inverse is awfully likely in the shake of ultimate Dies ...

It may strike you like ether, alcohol or even ester if you take a deep enough breath! Excess of anything is toxic ... like passions can really screw up a ghostly personification ... like AI for instance ... and it converts to hay? Grass will grow where there's fertility ... and salad accrue 'd ...

The material folk do not know is as bad as the immaterial that is just ... well beyond their comprehension ... like hard wines ... squeals in the dark?

Basque Eire vielles or entire communities gone bonkers ... over stringencies?

 

[KayTheCurler]

I heard that much effort had been made to help this unmusical priest.

Some local Hutterites whose singing was wonderful told me that everyone can sing. They started the training in childhood though. The child was put beside an adult with a similar type of voice and told to copy them. No teasing or scolding involved.

 

[chansen]

Some people claim that anyone can be taught to sing passably. I wonder if this is true?

I'm available to prove them wrong.

 

[paradox3]

In church I can sing along with a tenor. I absolutely can't follow a woman singing soprano.

Someone who knows singing told me I have a good alto voice. But I am not so sure about that.

 

[Mendalla]

I have no delusions about my vocal abilities and make self-deprecatory jokes about being wanted for disturbing the peace if I ever dare to sing and things like that. Still, I do sing along with songs I like. I just check who is in earshot, first.

My whole view of what constitutes good singing has had a real about face in recent years. There was a time where a clean, clear sound with powerful belts and delicate softer notes was "good singing". Something like death metal growls got a puzzled frown at best. Even with someone like Cohen, I preferred his later, deeper, more "musical" voice to the nasal twang of his early work. I never really liked Dylan as a singer, even if I adored him as a poet and songwriter.

But then i got into metal. Metal singing in the 21st century ranges from soaring, operatic vocals in symphonic metal to guttural growls and screams in death metal and related genres. And everything in between. Modern metal combines styles in some interesting and sometimes weird ways. All of those approaches produce good and bad singers. Growling can be as technical as belting and the best growlers study technique and do warmups, just like any other good singer. I have a lot of respect for a good growler, and most of my favourites are also accomplished singers in general (e.g. my two favourite Canadian metal singers Alissa White-Gluz and Courtney Laplante, and Swede Mikail Stanne on the male side).

I am terrible at all of them, though I have never really tried growling. Maybe death metal is where my voice belongs. Or maybe doing spoken word over a musical background, which is basically how Lou Reed used to sing.

 

[Mendalla]

And for church singing, I do sing out loud but hope there's enough other, better voices around to drown me out. I actually had a church music director with a master's in music (and eventually a Phd but that was after he left my family's church) suggest I should join the choir. I held my laughter until he was out of earshot.