Death and all that.

No, I'm not anticipating that I'll die soon. It's just something a person thinks about when dealing with metastatic cancer.

The MAID threads made me think. Rather than adding to them, and inviting arguments, I decided to write something here. I ask that you respond respectfully.

As I edge closer to qualifying to apply for MAID, I realize that this is not an academic discussion for me. It is not a discussion that belongs in a university classroom. It is potentially an option for me. As you may have noticed, I have little tolerance for some thoughts, even though I do believe we are all entitled to make our own choices.

I've been part of a cancer support group in person for several years. I've also been part of a few FB groups. We have discussed MAID over coffee and online. One friend chose MAID in September last year. My aunt chose MAID in April this year. I've known others who have chosen it. Suddenly, MAID has become part of my circle so to speak. It has an impact.

I'm very glad it's an option for those who choose it. I'm glad both my friend and my aunt could take control over how they left this world. Both had good access to supports and care for the record.

Of course I'm speaking of track 1 only. Track 2 is an entirely different discussion in my mind.

This having a disease that can go sideways suddenly changes your perspective. At this point, my choice would be to go to palliative care. Who knows what I will decide later. I'm glad it is an option.

What do you think you would do?

I may add more thoughts later.

Edit: This is not a thread for debate or for political discussion. I've shared some of my thoughts of what it is like to be approaching a point where I'll qualify to apply for MAID. Kindly take any debate or political type questions to one of the MAID threads in the main forum. Thank you.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I just came on and saw this as I checked new threads.

I respect why you feel the way you do and I’m not going to invite an argument (I hope).

If I were in that position - which is not unlikely in time - I would choose palliative care until the very end, assuming that’s still an available option. I feel that it’s not my life to end, and certainly no one else’s. It would be betraying my ethics and values to do so. Not religious, but human rights ethics - the broader picture. It’s political. It’s about resources, what we prioritize and who is considered worthy enough to keep around. I’m worthy enough until my last day and so is everyone else. I have to believe that or I’d contribute to a slide into utilitarianism which has been tyranny historically. Attitudes change to match it. And if I chose MAiD I feel I’d be letting a lot of future people down, one person at a time.

In short, it wouldn’t be about ending my own pain, though I’d take medication to keep me as comfortable as they could do. I don’t see MAiD as “treatment” for disease.

This is not to say I don’t understand why people would want to go early but I have reasons why I would not and they’re mostly sociopolitical. They’re about maintaining the integrity of the medical system long term, too. If palliative wasn’t available maybe I’d just stop eating at home. Or maybe I’d push to get better with whackadoodle “cures” until I dropped. Maybe I’d do whatever makes me feel a bit better. I don’t know, but it wouldn’t be MAiD.

I’m also afraid that MAiD discourages the search for cures because it’s cheaper, in a fascist utilitarian minded world that we’re headed towards. So I’d resist it and make my reasons known. That’s my outlook on it.

 

[chansen]

If it comes to it and the circumstances were right, I'd take the off ramp. I'm not interested in prolonging my suffering or telling anyone else they have to prolong theirs because of some religious or slippery slope reason.

And I'm keenly aware that if some people on my life who have pre-existing conditions don't have that option, they'll go the DIY approach. Because that always goes swimmingly.

 

[Northwind]

Thanks for responding.

It’s political. It’s about resources, what we prioritize and who is considered worthy enough to keep around. I’m worthy enough until my last day and so is everyone else.

MAID is not political for those who are actually in a position to choose it. None of the people I've known who chose MAID did it because they felt less worthy. They chose it because death was imminent or foreseeable. They were ready. It was a way to have some control in a situation where often a person has little control. The disease will do what it will. We don't have a lot of choice in the matter. We can hope the treatments do their thing. At some point though, there are no treatment options.

MAID is never a replacement for treatment. If it is used as Track 1 was intended, then it is used when death is imminent or foreseeable.

The important thing is we have to live and die according to our values.

 

[Northwind]

I'm not interested in prolonging my suffering or telling anyone else they have to prolong theirs because of some religious or slippery slope reason.

Yes, this is absolutely a personal choice.

 

[Luce NDs]

I have a leaning towards personal choice under the sense of The Golden Rule. It is why I speak of my experience in such shrouded manner because many people do not even wish to hear about this subject. But considering the question of what is our self as related to neighbor ... there is an environmental aspect of the effect of any decision on the entire integral of humanity. We learn from one another ... often not directly but by unconscious observation of what our clan or tribe considers normal.
I've sat with many dying people and it has affected me deeply because of some of the peculiarities. I've experienced the near death arousing of someone rising and speaking to an unseen essence at the foot of their bed just a short time before they slipped away. In particular was me father (who left family very early because of another different story of personality clashes). He was determinately against assisted death as having a powerful attitude for life. He suffered ailments similar to me (likely prion related; unknowns) this causes rheumatoid factors of neuro, cardiac and mental issues. A few days prior to death in a comatose state he asked me to take him home and shoot him. He fought against pain of all sorts through his life to the point that sometimes he seemed to have pushed it out of his sentient state. When experiencing severe pain (breakthrough) it is odd how mentality alters. It is the reason I study such distasteful topics in some regards!

I do not believe I am insane other than in the perspective of those highly emotional that believe a thinking man is dangerous (to their will). I am to a great deal self educated because of adverse feelings toward indoctrination functions. I've been told I should have dome PHD studies ... but rejection in different fields (Whal) caused exclusion When I was younger a medical professor of acquaintance at that time, asked me why I didn't take up medicine. My only reaction was that I did not have the strength to stand up to the extreme indoctrination that interns suffer. I am a gentile person very prone to attack by power (Jude in Classic story). I tended towards the Samaritan stance. No I am not a great ideal of that position. Usually I hide my real observations and feelings about those experiences in story, myth and metaphor. I have buried myself in metaphor in an attempt to interpret and understand the complexity of humanity and the angry, fearful responses of/to/for humanity and some of its inhumane functions. I am despised by many that are set one way or the other and thus suffer isolation and autonomy because of the collective distaste. There are those that do not believe in collective states and thus it remains the unconscious factor (imagine that as abstract). But if you are disposed of, denied expression, eliminated are you not drifting towards autonomous?

I have lost friends recently and feel really sensitive on this my 79th birthday I am suffering some symptoms of prion-related disease ... another friend has discovered ominous signs. Some people cannot stand this kind of news, information, etc. and thus what was once know on the scale of Noa (mind, nous, infinite friend connection). chew that over in the sense of hated Shadow Personality, or con-science! Science was once meant to be an observational field of study. We often lean towards the dark, shrouded means of avoidance. How should we as spiritual creatures function (think and do)?

In short we know little and perhaps best to go on an extended observational curve (paradigm) amongst a populace that would rather we remain blind. How can one back away and yet stay communicative ... the enigma of the life-death friction ... an unguent? Therein the divine rub or Reuben! What does the the great unknown do to accomplish this touch? Maybe when we cross that fine line we know ... I am fully uncertain and thus agree with Schroeder and Palling on their theories ... perhaps the theme of Constantine Crossing that Red Line of Sacred Christianity ... imagine leaving a brute force behind for more humble work ... abstract? On dark fields there are physical signs that vanish when you appear to stare ate them ... out of this realm experience?

Thus dreams and metaphysical visions! It is just me a tiny experience in a vast, mass collective ...

Should it be believed? I have vast doubts to and no one is going to stone me into a wall ... I'll enter the final tunnel anxiously wondering what is at the other end of the rabid hole that swallows humanity ... Ba's Ξ a 3-tiered etude? Ξ is a Xi in Greek symbolic phonetic. Some say indication two extreme lines with a medium as initial structure to create heaven and all that is under it ... even a transition zone ... it supports obfuscation and Gnostic for those that weren't ready to know anything ...

In grade 4 or 5 I encountered a teacher that was rather mystical in how she approached teaching through the way a story is sounded ... it got me to wondering and questioning all things ... especially death in the context of life.

I have encountered some alien items that few would accept ... even the strange thing called psyche! It is somewhat illusionary ... stare and it dips ... Wack a Molle?

 

[Luce NDs]

Noa in the preceding is from an old word that culminated in noetic ... some what related to paranoia about knowledge, etc.

I learned this when editing a bioethics course in which it appeared the presenter leaned towards moral desire more that the outlandish ethics as described in classic myth as the watchtower ... a strange tree. Then there is the tree of knowledge, information, etc, against the tree of emotion that we fall for in great numbers ... abstract vs absolute? If absolute is determined series ... what are the abstract numbers but representing mysterious ongoing operations ...

The entire thing is too complex for mortal views ... thus uncertainty prevails unless you're determined and stoic ... prepare to change and alter ... there are means of beauty ... that may have been initiated in an ugly naked state ... Ryne NDS! The end of king and monarchy once humbled? Nemesis ...

 

[chansen]

The closest I've come to making a decision like this was signing a DNR for Carter, should he go into arrest again and have a likely further brain injury. To rob him of more functions, put him through more excruciating pain but save him before he died was just unfathomable to us. Just to see him re-arrest again months later? The little guy had proved how tough he was, but more would have just been cruel. Just because we can save someone, doesn't always mean we should. And I think that's where this ties into the MAiD question.

And now with my father in ridiculous pain...I'm glad it's available as an option. When I can't reach them on the phone for a few days, I get anxious. They have terrible cell phone habits. They put the phones down in weird places then forget those places. And they don't care. And then they run across the phones randomly and they're out of battery. Then they forget to charge them. Then they charge them but dont turn them back on. We'd have better communication by carrier pigeons.

When I can't reach them for days, I call their neighbours. At the cottage, there is really no one to call. I worry if there is an event, they'll both decide to go. And maybe they wouldn't use a hospital anyway, but again, I'm glad it's an option. It's a better one than the "little man in Fulham".

 

[Northwind]

I've experienced the near death arousing of someone rising and speaking to an unseen essence at the foot of their bed just a short time before they slipped away.

We were with my mother as she died. Just before she slipped away, she looked to her left and babbled something that we didn't understand. Her minister stopped by afterwards. He was from the Caribbean originally. He asked who was the last person who died in the family. He told us it is their belief that that person came to get my mother. We found that comforting.

I have lost friends recently and feel really sensitive on this my 79th birthday I am suffering some symptoms of prion-related disease ... another friend has discovered ominous signs. Some people cannot stand this kind of news,

Yes, people have a hard time with these things don't they.

 

[Luce NDs]

The closest I've come to making a decision like this was signing a DNR for Carter, should he go into arrest again and have a likely further brain injury. To rob him of more functions, put him through more excruciating pain but save him before he died was just unfathomable to us. Just to see him re-arrest again months later? The little guy had proved how tough he was, but more would have just been cruel. Just because we can save someone, doesn't always mean we should. And I think that's where this ties into the MAiD question.

And now with my father in ridiculous pain...I'm glad it's available as an option. When I can't reach them on the phone for a few days, I get anxious. They have terrible cell phone habits. They put the phones down in weird places then forget those places. And they don't care. And then they run across the phones randomly and they're out of battery. Then they forget to charge them. Then they charge them but dont turn them back on. We'd have better communication by carrier pigeons.

When I can't reach them for days, I call their neighbours. At the cottage, there is really no one to call. I worry if there is an event, they'll both decide to go. And maybe they wouldn't use a hospital anyway, but again, I'm glad it's an option. It's a better one than the "little man in Fulham".

Free choice with responsibility for the pain of all involved; it leaves an open minded-hearted resolution where all exceptions have a chance for consideration ... I have an idea but it is not cast in cement!

I take the open heart-mind symbol as ῳ open on the high side that is controversial in abstract terms, it could flip and reciprocate ... you never know what a mother thing will echo ...

 

[Northwind]

The closest I've come to making a decision like this was signing a DNR for Carter, should he go into arrest again and have a likely further brain injury.

That would be such a difficult and heartbreaking decision.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Disabled people get pressured into DNRs more than people realize. I’ve heard many stories of people refusing such pressure then going on to live much longer than their expected prognosis, fighting for disabled rights to live with their diagnosis and adapt to their disabilities and do the same for others.

I wasn’t supposed to live after I was born. I wasn’t named for weeks. Every situation is different but I think it’s wrong to not accept disability as part of life.

When I had my hip surgery I told them before the subject could be broached: “if anything goes wrong, I want ‘full code’!” Which means do whatever you have to, to save my life. I figure that’s their job - no less so because I have a preexisting disabling condition.

 

[Northwind]

It's awesome you have that choice and are able to express it.

 

[chansen]

I wasn’t supposed to live after I was born. I wasn’t named for weeks. Every situation is different but I think it’s wrong to not accept disability as part of lif

I wasn't named for a week, my mom says because they couldn't decide. I wonder aloud if it was buyer's remorse.

Accepting disability is great. But some of us will draw a line, beyond which we or our loved ones are unwilling to cross. And that line is different for everybody. I think that's partly what this discussion is about, how we all interpret this differently and to accept that as much as we accept that those who are disabled have lives worth living.

It's a nuanced discussion. It's not black and white.

 

[Northwind]

It's a nuanced discussion. It's not black and white.

It is nuanced for sure. Not to mention, death comes to us all.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Disabled people get pressured into DNRs more than people realize. I’ve heard many stories of people refusing such pressure then going on to live much longer than their expected prognosis, fighting for disabled rights to live with their diagnosis and adapt to their disabilities and do the same for others.

I wasn’t supposed to live after I was born. I wasn’t named for weeks. Every situation is different but I think it’s wrong to not accept disability as part of life.

When I had my hip surgery I told them before the subject could be broached: “if anything goes wrong, I want ‘full code’!” Which means do whatever you have to, to save my life. I figure that’s their job - no less so because I have a preexisting disabling condition.

I broke my hip at the thickest part of the femeral head - clean break, leg was disconnected and dangling - and I thought I was going to die. It was pain that nothing - not even breaking my knee a few years earlier, compared to. I asked not to be given fentanyl in the ambulance - it was offered. I endured my leg being moved around on the X-ray table after the T3 had worn off while waiting in the hall. I’m a tough b… when I need to be and though I don’t ever wish that kind of pain on anybody I think suffering is part of life.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I wasn't named for a week, my mom says because they couldn't decide. I wonder aloud if it was buyer's remorse.

Accepting disability is great. But some of us will draw a line, beyond which we or our loved ones are unwilling to cross. And that line is different for everybody. I think that's partly what this discussion is about, how we all interpret this differently and to accept that as much as we accept that those who are disabled have lives worth living.

It's a nuanced discussion. It's not black and white.

“and to accept that as much as we accept that those who are disabled have lives worth living.”

Can you explain that further?

 

[Northwind]

I broke my hip at the thickest part of the femeral head - clean break, leg was disconnected and dangling - and I thought I was going to die. It was pain that nothing - not even breaking my knee a few years earlier, compared to. I asked not to be given fentanyl in the ambulance - it was offered. I endured my leg being moved around on the X-ray table after the T3 had worn off while waiting in the hall. I’m a tough b… when I need to be and though I don’t ever wish that kind of pain on anybody I think suffering is part of life.

In this case, death for you was probably not imminent. Therefore MAID was not a legitimate option. Pain is part of life, especially for that kind of injury.

 

[Luce NDs]

CS Lewis wrote quite a piece on the topic of pain ... and how it is paired and connected with awareness ... the opposing implications cause me to raise my eyes ... adept reaction?

That within thing ... there are alien and complex things inside a mortal ... also out there ... suggesting we are a medium or intermediate ... transient? Trans mediation ... can one close the span?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

My grandfather died from infection after breaking his hip. It’s was a very serious injury and I managed to keep my spirits up and wasn’t going to get suckered into anything. I was on guard. Death was on my mind from time to time, as infection can happen even many months after surgery if healing doesn’t go well.