Expansion of MAID delayed until after next election

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I think it depends who you ask. You'd clearly have some people here on your side.

Kimmio, I'd like you to slow down with your approach. I think we agree more than we disagree, but you take lack of total capitulation as opposition. You spam us with arguments you get from Google with zero vetting, which is how we got that MLI link, and you want us to forward your arguments to others? We would be doing your cause no favours if we did.

I don't agree with you on some aspects of MAiD. I never will. I see value in the alleviation of suffering. I allow there should be bars that must be cleared. I think making it too restrictive will result in botched suicides, more suffering, and needless legal entanglements.

But I won't be debating these points with you because it's not worth it. You will attack those thoughts of mine, and that's fine. I won't be here to respond.
 
chansen said:
I think it depends who you ask. You'd clearly have some people here on your side.

Kimmio, I'd like you to slow down with your approach. I think we agree more than we disagree, but you take lack of total capitulation as opposition. You spam us with arguments you get from Google with zero vetting, which is how we got that MLI link, and you want us to forward your arguments to others? We would be doing your cause no favours if we did.

I don't agree with you on some aspects of MAiD. I never will. I see value in the alleviation of suffering. I allow there should be bars that must be cleared. I think making it too restrictive will result in botched suicides, more suffering, and needless legal entanglements.

But I won't be debating these points with you because it's not worth it. You will attack those thoughts of mine, and that's fine. I won't be here to respond.
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Sorry, with the exception of a credible author posting on at a bad site (yesterday’s fiasco) - she’s highly credentialed and stands by the same opinion everywhere, including cbc - I do not pull bad arguments from google.

If the UN and just about every disability organization in Canada isn’t a good enough argument for you - quite vetted and should be seen through their lens first - maybe you’re the problem.
 
chansen said:
I think it depends who you ask. You'd clearly have some people here on your side.

Kimmio, I'd like you to slow down with your approach. I think we agree more than we disagree, but you take lack of total capitulation as opposition. You spam us with arguments you get from Google with zero vetting, which is how we got that MLI link, and you want us to forward your arguments to others? We would be doing your cause no favours if we did.

I don't agree with you on some aspects of MAiD. I never will. I see value in the alleviation of suffering. I allow there should be bars that must be cleared. I think making it too restrictive will result in botched suicides, more suffering, and needless legal entanglements.

But I won't be debating these points with you because it's not worth it. You will attack those thoughts of mine, and that's fine. I won't be here to respond.
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You can dish out sarcasm but can’t take it.
 
I strongly believe that choice is important in most things, especially when it comes to treatment decisions and related issues. I've seen the reasons for my beliefs on the ground, both personally and professionally. An article probably won't make a big difference in that.

I now have quite a cancer support network. As I mentioned before, one group I've been in started with about 10 people. Only two of us original members are still alive. Another general group has people with several kinds of cancer at different stages. So yes, we've talked about death and MAID. While information presented here does have an impact, I'm not going to head out on some missionary mission to convert anyone. My professional ethics and values apparently still inform my behaviour. I strongly believe in the "start where the person is" value. I've also learned that lectures aren't where people learn the best. So, my discussions are what they are. I'm part of the discussion. I'm not a leader or evangelist in those discussions and will never be one

I appreciate the new information and will consider it. As you have probably discovered, I will not tolerate being told my lived experience has less value than articles. Anyone's lived experience informs their worldviews. I would never ever presume to know what it's like to live with a physical disability.
 
The articles and the UN warnings are ALL about real lives, not theories. The whole opposition to any parts of these policies are about lives, lived experiences. Thousands and thousands of lived experiences, at risk. The stats make the points digestible but they represent real lives.

I never said yours aren’t important. I’m saying that we make human rights laws so that mainstream opinion doesn’t take precedence over marginalized people’s lives.
 
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Northwind said:
I strongly believe that choice is important in most things, especially when it comes to treatment decisions and related issues. I've seen the reasons for my beliefs on the ground, both personally and professionally. An article probably won't make a big difference in that.

I now have quite a cancer support network. As I mentioned before, one group I've been in started with about 10 people. Only two of us original members are still alive. Another general group has people with several kinds of cancer at different stages. So yes, we've talked about death and MAID. While information presented here does have an impact, I'm not going to head out on some missionary mission to convert anyone. My professional ethics and values apparently still inform my behaviour. I strongly believe in the "start where the person is" value. I've also learned that lectures aren't where people learn the best. So, my discussions are what they are. I'm part of the discussion. I'm not a leader or evangelist in those discussions and will never be one

I appreciate the new information and will consider it. As you have probably discovered, I will not tolerate being told my lived experience has less value than articles. Anyone's lived experience informs their worldviews. I would never ever presume to know what it's like to live with a physical disability.
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I didn’t say you have less value. You tend to overreact and decide things that aren’t there, yourself. Like the boomer comment - wasn’t there. Your lived experience matters as much as homeless disabled people’s and they don’t have the same protection these days as the majority-public. You want to believe they do, maybe, but those aren’t the facts.
 
If my lived experience was as valuable as articles posted I wouldn't be dismissed as I have been.

I stand by my previous comment
 
Northwind said:
If my lived experience was as valuable as articles posted I wouldn't be dismissed as I have been.

I stand by my previous comment
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You miss the point, which is:

If your lived experience wasn’t (seen as valuable) you could very likely be discriminated against and at risk of coercion.

You reduce the real human concerns of others down to “articles”?

How do you propose to find out about the broader concerns?
 
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Kimmio Laughterlove said:
If your lived experience wasn’t (seen as valuable) you could very likely be discriminated against and at risk of coercion.

You reduce the real human concerns of others down to “articles”?
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No, I was speaking specifically about my discussion with you. I am well aware that I have privilege and abilities/knowledge that help me on this journey. I often wonder how someone who doesn't have those abilities manages. I advocate for myself, yes. I also advocate for others when I'm able/asked. Advocacy comes in different forms.

Kimmio Laughterlove said:
How do you propose to find out about the broader concerns
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Apparently you forgot what my education and professional experience are. Do you really think I'm unaware of broader concerns? Seriously?
 
The people I listed - and those writing the articles from the disability pov are more experts on this than any people in any other professions affected by this issue, generally. They’ve been right with every warning. I defer to the UN.

But you win because I’m done discussing here. Clearly a waste of time. I can’t be here. Yes I believe you do you need to agree with disability groups and the UN 100% to be on the right side of history on this. It’s not about personal wishes. It’s about protecting people from potential genocide - which is a contagion in wartime so it’s kinda like preventing forest fires - the reason the UN declaration exists. The question for me is can i be friends with people I know are on the wrong side of it. I have limits. I’ve hit it here. think I’ve spent enough years in this hamster wheel.
 
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(It’s a divorce from WC2 because my efforts and views, clearly aren’t respected enough that you even spread the word. That breaks my heart. Why should I be here? If you agree with me at all it’s only after me being a broken record for years and being bashed. That’s what it took to move the needle at all with just a few people, who are still on the wrong side of history because they still haven’t taken this issue up themselves and tried to discuss it beyond here. It was just some interesting subject about personal choice, not about human rights abuse, from where you sit. And I’m just some disabled nobody. You consider yourselves “above” and human rights is not about that. Ableism is still a problem here. Some of you have been willing to say you could support horrible things because bullying me over exactly how I present the information was more important for to you to support, which I know is not about me but I can’t accept it. It is an accurate reflection on society though. I’m done. It’s a waste of time. I’ve wasted a lot of time here talking about this but if we’re not on the same page I don’t want to spend anymore time here. That’s clear now. I figure I might have 10 years left in this world. I want to spend them differently. That’s the choice I’m going to exercise for the rest of my time.)
 
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Kimmio Laughterlove said:
(It’s a divorce from WC2 because my efforts and views, clearly aren’t respected enough that you even spread the word. That breaks my heart. Why should I be here? If you agree with me at all it’s only after me being a broken record for years and being bashed. That’s what it took to move the needle at all with just a few people, who are still on the wrong side of history because they still haven’t taken this issue up themselves and tried to discuss it beyond here. It was just some interesting subject about personal choice, not about human rights abuse, from where you sit. And I’m just some disabled nobody. You consider yourselves “above” and human rights is not about that. Ableism is still a problem here. Some of you have been willing to say you could support horrible things because bullying me over exactly how I present the information was more important for to you to support, which I know is not about me but I can’t accept it. It is an accurate reflection on society though. I’m done. It’s a waste of time. I’ve wasted a lot of time here talking about this but if we’re not on the same page I don’t want to spend anymore time here. That’s clear now. I figure I might have 10 years left in this world. I want to spend them differently. That’s the choice I’m going to exercise for the rest of my time.)
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On the same page within 5% margin of on error on this subject is all I’ll accept.
 
Kimmio Laughterlove said:
On the same page within 5% margin of on error on this subject is all I’ll accept.
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Now this is interesting. You have come here expecting to achieve 95% agreement with your views. And anything less makes you feel like a hamster spinning on a wheel.

This is a high bar for a discussion forum. I am not surprised at the level of frustration you experience. Lashing out in anger (including threatening to leave) is seldom helpful. This is a lesson many of us have learned along the way.

It seems you are allowing us a 5% error rate. Possibly the 5% difference could represent a different perspective rather than an error???

Those of us engaging with you on this thread have our own lived experiences. Believe it or not.
 
paradox3 said:
Now this is interesting. You have come here expecting to achieve 95% agreement with your views. And anything less makes you feel like a hamster spinning on a wheel.

This is a high bar for a discussion forum. I am not surprised at the level of frustration you experience. Lashing out in anger (including threatening to leave) is seldom helpful. This is a lesson many of us have learned along the way.

It seems you are allowing us a 5% error rate. Possibly the 5% difference could represent a different perspective rather than an error???

Those of us engaging with you on this thread have our own lived experiences. Believe it or not.
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And some very high hopes of being successful when they do deny the subtle rules ... the ignore factor ... so much is missed in the hypo-thetically unstable belief in concrete pedestals! They incarnate ... as incarcerations ... self nihilating ... real odd consequences!

The consequence is the greatest concern ... while many don't fret it ... they just plough through with intent to succeed ... others look for the escape hole ... and before you know it great skills are lost ... that's the believe in AI ... it is not natural ...
 
paradox3 said:
@Luce NDs
You seem to be saying something very worthwhile this morning. But as usual, it's hard for me to be sure with your posts. :p
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It is not permissible to say such things due to vast fear of authority ... popular paranoia? One must read the adepts ... because truth is well disposed ... mortals will not have anything of it ... the reason lyres proliferate ... it is the state we're in ...

Imagine David being the initial lyre as a go^eth ... Sami's? The devil may have it ... thus this myth continues ... that the devil is in possession of all lost soul ... there are implications! These may be the only portion that are real ... mindfulness dissipates ...

Where doth it go? Magical how it goes down ... that's history!
 
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paradox3 said:
Now this is interesting. You have come here expecting to achieve 95% agreement with your views. And anything less makes you feel like a hamster spinning on a wheel.

This is a high bar for a discussion forum. I am not surprised at the level of frustration you experience. Lashing out in anger (including threatening to leave) is seldom helpful. This is a lesson many of us have learned along the way.

It seems you are allowing us a 5% error rate. Possibly the 5% difference could represent a different perspective rather than an error???

Those of us engaging with you on this thread have our own lived experiences. Believe it or not.
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Yeah, the bar for allowing genocide is pretty high. Higher than that - like, no room for error. That’s what the UN declarations are about. The 5% I mentioned represents the amount of ableist ignorance I can tolerate in discussion about this here after years. It’s been reduced because of time and effort with no results.
 
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