Snoopy Approaches Acts

[unsafe]

So some scholars have taken Romans 11;25 -26 as a time line for the end of the Church age ---
AMP
25 I do not want you, believers, to be unaware of this mystery [God’s previously hidden plan]—so that you will not be wise in your own opinion—that a partial hardening has [temporarily] happened to Israel [to last] until the full number of the Gentiles has come in;

26 and so [at that time] all Israel [that is, all Jews who have a personal faith in Jesus as Messiah] will be saved; just as it is written [in Scripture],

I say ------Now if you look this word ---come ---up in the Greek ----it means this

Strong's Concordance
Lexical Summary
eiserchomai: To enter, to go into, to come into

Metaphorically used,

a. of entrance into any condition, state of things, society, employment: that are trying to enter, or rather, that have taken the road to enter, are (engaged in) entering, used absolutely of those who come into (i. e. become members of) the Christian church, Romans 11:25

I say -------So it sounds like when the last of the Gentiles are saved --and only God knows when that is ------that will end the Church age ---the Rapture will happen and God saves the Jews by marking them as He own and uses them to Preach the Gospel during the 7 year Tribulation which happens immediately after the Rapture ------

AI


The belief that the Church Age ends when the last Gentile is saved is a common interpretation within certain Christian eschatological frameworks, particularly those that emphasize a distinction between God's dealings with the Church and with Israel. This view often connects the "fullness of the Gentiles" (Romans 11:25) with the end of the Church Age and the subsequent return to a focus on God's plan for Israel.

• "Fullness of the Gentiles":
  This phrase, found in Romans 11:25, is interpreted by some as the point at which a predetermined number of Gentiles have been saved, marking a shift in God's focus.
  
  
• Rapture:
  Some proponents of this view believe that the "fullness of the Gentiles" triggers the Rapture, where believers are taken up to heaven before the Tribulation period.

 

[paradox3]

Acts 2:42-47

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 2:42-47 - New English Translation

The Fellowship of the Early Believers - They were devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Reverential awe came over everyone, and many wonders and miraculous signs came about by the apostles. All who believed were together and held...

www.biblegateway.com

This is a short & beautiful passage describing the fellowship of early believers.

The apostles are among them performing miraculous signs and wonders. The Lord is adding to their numbers every day.

 

[paradox3]

Would it be possible for the institutional church to recapture some of this enthusiasm today?

 

[unsafe]

Would it be possible for the institutional church to recapture some of this enthusiasm today?

My view

I think it would be possible if you had Holy Spirit Filled Ministers today Preaching ---like the Apostles were --but the reality is ----that most Ministers today are not even Holy Spirit indwelled today -----Most preaching in the Churches buildings today are called by themselves not by God -----God called these Apostles Himself ---and enabled them to serve and save --

Ministers today still preach ----go serve your neighbour and you will be saved ----do good works and you will be saved ---God's love will save you ----you don't need Jesus ------------they don't preach the truth ----they preach half truths ----which is a lie ----they sugarcoat scripture to make it nice and clean and fluffy ----

God is far from most Churches today cause the people Preaching are far from God ----and they can't Preach Spiritual things cause they can't grasp it or understand it -----

Jesus said to the Pharisees -you are whitewashed on the outside but are defiled on the inside ---
Godly Preaching comes from the inside out ----not from the outside in ---

To many Dead Preachers --Preaching dead false Doctrine today----- in my opinion -----

 

[paradox3]

It could be that some of the new spirit/ Spirit described in this reading has been choked out by bureaucracy.

We started trying to pin down our creeds within a few centuries of this passage. This continued over the years with Increasingly complex creeds. (Up to and including the ridiculous Song of Faith we have in our denomination)

Church history shows us increasing schism and multiplication of new sects/ denominations. Are we all trying to recapture what existed in the beginning?

The NT tells us the church started experiencing problems soon after Acts 2.

 

[paradox3]

Actually the New Creed of the United Church didn't follow the trend of increasing complexity of creeds.

IMHO it was a brilliant piece of writing. I have never known anything about the process of creating it.

Can either of you shed some light on the creation of our New Creed @Redbaron or @GordW ?

 

[Mendalla]

Would it be possible for the institutional church to recapture some of this enthusiasm today?

As I think you have alluded to already, the structure and bureaucracy of the institution tends to choke out the spontaneity that is need for the "Spirit" to manifest. It is interesting to note that many of the most successful evangelical churches and denominations are congregational, with minimal bureaucracy and often charismatic ministers/pastors planting and running their own churches. That seems more amenable to the Spirit manfesting in the way we see in Acts (where there was no "church" in the modern sense yet) than a top down bureaucracy like the Vatican or a conciliar one like many Protestant denominations. A pastor/minister in the UCCan who began having lively, Spirit-filled services, even retaining the church's liberal leaning, would likely get frowns as much as encouragement.

 

[unsafe]

So here in the first verse of today's scripture ---we see that the 3,000 were

using AMP for scripture

42 ;They were continually and faithfully devoting themselves to the instruction of the apostles, and to fellowship, to eating meals together and to prayers.

So how many people today ---continually and faithfully devote themselves to the instruction of God's word and believe it and follow and obey it -------

The People in the Pews of the Church today are only as knowledgeable as what they hear from the pulpit ---so if their feeding is poor then they are starving Spiritually ------

Verse 43 -------A sense of awe was felt by everyone

Here we see the 3;000 had a sense of AWE ----Why? because all the Apostles were preaching the same Doctrine of truth ----there was no one confusing anyone with preaching another Doctrine -----

I say ------Today there are so many denomination and they are all preaching their own Doctrines to suit their own agendas ---so you have confusion among people----- not AWE ----We have ------well I am Catholic and I don't believe what you believe ---etc etc etc ---

Verse 44
44 And all those who had believed [in Jesus as Savior] ]were together and had all things in common [considering their possessions to belong to the group as a whole].

I say ----- So they all were on the same page ---their mindset was the same ---they were focused on God's will not their will --

This is Important -----as today the mindsets are all different in each denomination which is really stupid in my view ----- there is One God in True Christianity ----and only one way to get to that one God as according to the Scripture ----and that is not what is being taught today ---we are told there are many ways to be saved ----which goes against what God says -----

Verse 45 ------ This is a good one for today's society --------who love their possessions more than anything ------

45 And they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing the proceeds with all [the other believers], as anyone had need

I say ------- shows their Total Trust in God providing like He promises He will do in His word ------Faith in action here Folks ----to them knowing Jesus became more important to them than their possessions -----now that is a feat to accomplish for the True Christian ---

Am I there yet ---somewhat ---gave a lot of my furniture away to the people who were in need when i moved from one Province to another a few years back ---and I didn't suffer one bit for it --I am living quiet well and in need of Nothing ------ God provided what I needed ---

Verse 46 ----we see they are still of one mindset ---so important ---as this will be the divider later on -----different mindsets come into play --

46 Day after day they met in the temple [area] continuing with one mind, and breaking bread in various private homes.
They were eating their meals together with joy and generous hearts,


I say -----Joy comes from being Grateful to God for all He has done for us ===and a generous hearts come from wanting to please God and do His will -----

They continually Praised God ===Praising God Folks is very powerful -----

Later in the Chapter you will see how Praising God brought Breakthrough for Paul and Silas-

AI
In essence, praise is not just a response to a breakthrough; it can be a powerful tool to initiate one, by shifting our focus, strengthening our faith, and silencing the enemy's influence.

 

[paradox3]

Thanks @unsafe. Good points for discussion.

I am especially fond of Acts 2:42. Here's a link to several translations

Acts 2:42 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

We could ask ourselves, "To what extent do we live these things out today?" Will give this some thought.

 

[unsafe]

It could be that some of the new spirit/ Spirit described in this reading has been choked out by bureaucracy.

The Bureaucracy of the Church rewards Evil and punishes Good in my opinion -----

I think that the Bureaucracy of the Church restricts certain truths From being Preached and keeps a tight reign on what is allowed to be Preached -----For instance I know a few pastors who were told that they could not preach about Money in any way shape or form --- there were other topics they had to be careful about how they were presented so people would not feel threatened or uncomfortable in their Faith --this to me just shows that the people in the Bureaucracy are of this world who Satan is the god of -----

But Bureaucracy in the Church has nothing to do if a person who decides to become a Pastor has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ---who is the only one who can properly teach the Spiritual things of God ---and who would give the Pastor the strength and might to fight the bureaucracy of the Church --to preach the Truth in their Church ----People are so scared of their jobs they lay down and allow the Bureaucracy to win --

The Problem lies with the Seminary Schools allowing people to become Ministers who are not Saved ----who can't preach the truth anyway cause they don't know the truth themselves --
Jesus fought Bureaucracy ----the Pharisees had their own restrictions and Jesus fought again them ---Matthew 12:1-8

John MacArthur fought the Bureaucracy when they tried to shut his church down over Covid --and he took it to court and WON -------

 

[Mendalla]

I think that the Bureaucracy of the Church restricts certain truths From being Preached and keeps a tight reign on what is allowed to be Preached -----For instance I know a few pastors who were told that they could not preach about Money in any way shape or form --- there were other topics they had to be careful about how they were presented so people would not feel threatened or uncomfortable in their Faith --this to me just shows that the people in the Bureaucracy are of this world who Satan is the god of -----

Strangely, while I think you and I would disagree very much on what truths those are, I agree with this. The bureaucracy and the need to maintain control is why heresy trials and similar happen rather than an open exchange of ideas where the Spirit can be present and speak. I do not believe that everyone need agree on those "truths" and that's probably where you and I would part company. Instead of enforcing a canonical "truth" and slinging accusations against those who disagree or have another understanding, let the Spirit move in the people and let the "truth" come out in their discussions and questioning. Which, really, is what we are doing here.

And I don't think it is related to the liberal-conservative divide, either. It is baked into the nature of building a large, complex organization and can happen regardless of the church's leaning (*cough* Gretta *cough*). Certainly larger, more hierarchical churches like RCs may be more prone to it, but even in a largely congregational church, the leadership can function that way. I've seen it in UU'ism even, where the "truth" was a humanist understanding of the world that did not sit well with those of us who sought a more spiritual approach.

 

[paradox3]

Going back to Acts 2: 38, Peter's instruction was to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. There is no litmus test for the quality of anyone's repentance. No discernment of what they believe to be true or how soft their hearts are.

Just a call to repentance & willingness to be baptized.

The focus then switches to learning from the apostles in community. And being in community with other believers.

Of course, these are early days and the description of the church almost sounds idyllic. We know that trouble will come later.

 

[Mendalla]

Of course, these are early days and the description of the church almost sounds idyllic.

And I think that's kind of key here. It is barely organized at this point, with just the existence of the Apostles and others who knew Jesus personally and received teaching directly from him establishing them as de facto leaders. But they even had to figure out a process for adding an Apostle to replace Judas so there's little structure there, even if that could be seen as the beginning of creating some. It's anarchy in the good sense*; that is, a society where governance is entirely in the hands of the members and the society exists almost entirely as relationships between people without a strong hierarchy of leaders, constitutions, governments, etc.

I do not believe the modern church can ever go back to that. Flatten the hierarchies, download power to congregations and their members, sure. But the almost anarchical nature of the church we see at the beginning of Acts is gone forever, I would argue. Even a congregational church with national bodies for coordination only with no actual national/international governance (UUs in Canada are basically this) still has some structure and hierarchy inside the congregations.

* vs. anarchy in the bad sense where there no social order or coherence of any kind and chaos and conflict rein supreme

 

[paradox3]

There will always be group dynamics. Even when Jesus was still alive the group of disciples had its dynamics.

 

[paradox3]

It's so interesting to ponder the history of the early church. Churches are unique and complex organizations, no?

Both a human construction and the body of Christ.

Both a corporation and an extended family.

 

[Mendalla]

It's so interesting to ponder the history of the early church.

One wonders what the church would look like if Christianity hadn't taken off and become the massive organized religion it did. Might not be as anarchic as what we see in Acts 2 but maybe something more like we see in the Pauline era, small churches that are largely locally governed with "Apostles" or similar senior figures who act as sources of wisdom and guidance through their writings and letters (or, in the modern era, the Internet).

 

[unsafe]

I do not believe the modern church can ever go back to that

My view
I think the Modern Church has to revamp their Strategies and come back to the roots of following the Way ---the modern Churches today are Spiritually Starved and dead in their so called Religious Followings ---there are so many religions today people have no clue where they should be -------

The Disciples had Jesus and the Followed the One WAY -- -they had stability and consistency -----There is none of that today in my view ------

You have this---going from one Religion to another trying to find your Religion

OH I tried the different Religions but none suit me so i gave up and follow none now ---OR I didn't like the Baptise Religion so now I am trying the Anglican Religion ----and if I don't like that I will try the Catholic Religion -----

I think the Modern Church has to many gods --to many ways to get to the one God -to many regulations and to many rules and to many scripture restrictions and to many Pastors who are spiritually blinded -----

I think the Modern day Church thinks people are naive and they can be fooled and they are so right ----

Many People today Are Naive as to even what is said in Scripture --they are gullible and uninformed ---so the Modern day Church can have a field day --taking Scripture and maneuver it any way they see fit cause their flocks are ignorant of what the word even says --

 

[Mendalla]

I think the Modern day Church thinks people are naive and they can be fooled and they are so right

I don't think you can generalize that. Sure, there is some of that. I won't deny it. But a lot of that is in the TV evangelists and their related churches. I find most mainstream denominations like the UCCan, Presbyterians, etc. are pretty sincerely trying to help people find their way spiritually. You may disagree with their theology (or lack thereof, since many of them are pretty loosey-goosey on what people can believe), but that doesn't make them scammers like you imply here. Maybe wrong in the eyes of you and God, but that's not being a scammer. Even the Roman Catholic Church has many within who are quite sincere, even if the organization itself is so corrupt it makes many governments look honest by comparison.

 

[paradox3]

Been thinking about those early believers devoting the themselves to instruction, fellowship, breaking bread together and prayer.

We still do all of these things in our churches. At least to some extent.

Never ever have I thought about potluck dinners as a biblical imperative.

 

[Mendalla]

Been thinking about those early believers devoting the themselves to instruction, fellowship, breaking bread together and prayer.

We still do all of these things in our churches. At least to some extent.

When you read Paul's letters, what seems to come out is rather small, intimate communities. People gathering for dinner at someone's house with prayer, teaching, and communion as part of that gathering. Not so much a worship service as we know it but something like a Greek symposium (a dinner party with conversation, Plato portrays one in his dialogue of the same name).