Snoopy Grapples with Galatians

[GordW]

Snoopy's Snappy Review: Galatians 2: 15-21

Hmmm. Doesn't Jesus say in Matthew's gospel that he came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it?

Yours, Snoopy

Again we see the reality of differing lines of thought within the early Christian community, particularly with regards to Torah/Law and if it is burden or gift, if it has been abolished or not.

 

[Mystic]

Again we see the reality of differing lines of thought within the early Christian community, particularly with regards to Torah/Law and if it is burden or gift, if it has been abolished or not.

Nope. Paul endorses the claim in Matthew 5:17 that Christ fulfills the Law:

"Christ is the fulfillment/end both implied by the (Greek "telos") ) of the Law, so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes (Romans 10:4)."

The Sermon on the Mount presents Jesus as the New lawgiver, the Prophet like Moses of Deuteronomy 18:15-20. Jesus' repeated phrase "You have heard that it was said...but I say unto you" supplants or reinterprets aspects of the Law to satisfy Jesus' new role. Paul incorporates aspects of the Law in his ethical teaching and links them to his underlying theme of grace. Paul concedes the right of Jewish Christians to be Torah-observant as long as they don't try to iimpose circumcision, Jewish dietary laws, and other Jewish rituals on Gentiles. Now Jesus' teaching must be viewed through the prism of His atoning death and resuurection, as Mark 19:45 already implies.

 

[Mystic]

What does Paul mean by his claim, "I have been crucified with Christ?" This language must be understood in terms of his theology of immersion baptism:

"How can we who died to sin go on living in sin? Do you not know that all who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
. Therefore, we have been buried with Him by (immersive) baotism into His death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead, in the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life (Romans 6:2-4).

Through baptism by immersion, we acknowledge that Christ died with our sins on His record. As a result, we must put to death everything that characterized our sinful nature and way of life. In that sense, we are crucified with Him. Emergence from baptismal waters symbolizes our participation through the Holy Spirit in Christ's resurrection power: "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." Here Paul introduces the most important need for the Christian life, the need for an intimate personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

[paradox3]

Okay folks, this is a great discussion we have going on with differing points of view being offered respectfully. It's a good thread.

However...

I request that no more posts be started with the word Nope @Mystic. Surely there is a better way to express that you have something contrary-minded to offer.

 

[Mystic]

The Apostle Paul expresses the central doctrine of the experience of an intimate personal relationship with Christ in various ways, for example, in his longing expressed in Philippians 3:10,;

"I want to know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to Him in His death"

For Paul, an intimate personal relationship with Christ is an acid test of a true Christian:

"Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? Unless , indeed, you fail to pass the test (2 Corinthians 13:5)!"

 

[unsafe]

Hmmm. Doesn't Jesus say in Matthew's gospel that he came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it?

Yes Jesus came and fulfilled the Law -----I think understanding this word abolish is important here in regards to the Laws ----

Strong's Lexicon
katargeó: To abolish, to nullify, to render ineffective, to bring to an end

So the laws are not wiped out -----they are now ineffective for the person who Receives Jesus as their Lord and Saviour ----that is ---they bring to and end for a believer in Christ the bondage that the Laws had over the The Jewish Nation in trying to keep the 613 laws ----as if you broke one of the 613 laws you broke them all so you were shackled to and burdened by trying to keep the laws --to be Blessed -which no man could do -----so the laws brought in the Curse and Spiritual death ----

AI Overview

“The letter of the law brings death” is a phrase from the Bible that appears in 2 Corinthians 3:6 and Romans 7:10. It means that the law, though good, exposes sin and leads to spiritual death.

I believe the Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah still follow Moses and the laws

 

[unsafe]

Again we see the reality of differing lines of thought within the early Christian community, particularly with regards to Torah/Law and if it is burden or gift,

I don't know why anyone would call the 613 laws a gift -----they were certainly a burden on the Jewish Nation in my view ---

 

[GordW]

I don't know why anyone would call the 613 laws a gift -----they were certainly a burden on the Jewish Nation in my view ---

ANdI have read Jewish voices that see TOrah as gift. Boundaries to keep the community and indivduals healthy are a gift

 

[BetteTheRed]

I don't know why anyone would call the 613 laws a gift -----they were certainly a burden on the Jewish Nation in my view ---

Those who are Jewish do not regret that you are not. Would hope that you might treat the Jewish scriptures your religion co-opted, with some respect. But ya don't, generally.

 

[BetteTheRed]

The Apostle Paul expresses the central doctrine of the experience of an intimate personal relationship with Christ in various ways, for example, in his longing expressed in Philippians 3:10,;

"I want to know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to Him in His death"

For Paul, an intimate personal relationship with Christ is an acid test of a true Christian:

"Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? Unless , indeed, you fail to pass the test (2 Corinthians 13:5)!"

And how is it helpful to the discussion to move from Galations to Phillipians?

 

[Mystic]

And how is it helpful to the discussion to move from Galations to Phillipians?

(1) Because Paul's lauguage used to express central role of ab intimate personal relationship with Christ needs to be clarified by the language he uses to express this relationship elsewhere.
I2) Because the importance of a relationship with Christ needs to be grounded in its symbolic role in baptism (Romans), its need to have its validity tested (2 Corinthians), and the fact that we are all a work in progress and therefore need to long for a deepening intimate connection with Christ (Philippians).
(3) Most of all, because the impoverished experience of this intimate relationship with Christ in the lives of most mainline denominational members necessitates an aggressive stress on the neglected experiential riches offered by the Gospel.

 

[paradox3]

Those who are Jewish do not regret that you are not. Would hope that you might treat the Jewish scriptures your religion co-opted, with some respect. But ya don't, generally.

I was astounded to learn that Jews don't seek converts to their faith. I don't remember when I first realized this but it was some time ago.

 

[paradox3]

And how is it helpful to the discussion to move from Galations to Phillipians?

As your host, I am trying to keep us focused on the scripture we are studying. Galatians is widely recognized as Paul's first letter. I am not sure it makes much sense to use later letters to explain an earlier one.

It was recommended to me to read the letters in the order they were written. And to look for how Paul's thinking changes over time.

There may be times we want to refer to other parts of the bible and I am okay with that. I have referenced Matthew once on this thread myself.

Let's just be.mindful we are studying Galatians right now.

 

[paradox3]

Galatians 3:1-5

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 3:1-5 - New English Translation

Justification by Law or by Faith? - You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are...

www.biblegateway.com

Paul declares "You foolish Galatians!"

They have received the Spirit but are trying to revert to human effort.

Paul asks "Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the Law or by believing what you heard?"

 

[paradox3]

Snoopy's Snappy Review: Galatians 3:1-5

Snoopy notices that Paul has not told the Galatians exactly what they are supposed to believe.

Yours, Snoopy

 

[unsafe]

Those who are Jewish do not regret that you are not. Would hope that you might treat the Jewish scriptures your religion co-opted, with some respect. But ya don't, generally

Sorry paradox3 ---just answering BetteThe Red here

The Jewish Scriptures as you call them are not just for the Jews BetteTheRed -----these Scriptures were given By God ---not the Jews ---

-their Religion of Judaism ----is claiming that the first 5 books is for them ----

AI Overview
The first five books of the Hebrew Bible are called the Torah in Judaism.


AI Overview




The Hebrew word Torah (

) means "teaching", "doctrine", or "instruction". It can also refer to the first five books of the Hebrew Bib, or the entire Hebrew Bible.


Meaning

• Teaching: The word Torah comes from the root yirah, which means "to teach" or "to guide".
  
  
• Laws: The word Torah can also mean "law", but this is an inaccurate rendering.
  
  
• Instruction: The word Torah can refer to instruction and teaching from God, parents, prophets, and others.

The written Torah

• The written Torah is the first section of the Tanakh, also known as the Jewish Hebrew Bible or Christian Old Testament.

so these Scriptures are Godly Scriptures for Godly People ----the Jews do not own the Torah ---the Torah was written to show that God had a plan and that plan was to bring His Son to save all people -----God chose the Jewish Nation to bring about His plan -----

So it would be nice if you would show God the respect that He deserves by having the Torah put in place to show that how this Plan will play out ---using the Jewish Nation to bring this plan into play -----

And as far as the 10 laws are concerned ----the Jews wanted laws to follow at Sinal said they would follow them and they couldn't and they didn't ---and brought the curse and eternal death upon themselves --and God knew they couldn't follow them because He had a Plan and this played into His future plan -----which was to being in a New Covenant to save the Jews and Gentiles -----

Now back to Galatians 3:1-5

 

[GordW]

Snoopy's Snappy Review: Galatians 3:1-5

Snoopy notices that Paul has not told the Galatians exactly what they are supposed to believe.

Yours, Snoopy

Remembering that in most cases Paul has a pre-existing relationship with the places he sends letters (often he has visited the place in person at an earlier date) it is quite likely that the letter is serving to reinforce what he told them previously rather than introduce them to this new faith.

 

[paradox3]

Please folks let's not get sidetracked into discussing the Torah on this thread. May I suggest a new thread in R&F @BetteTheRed or @unsafe?

 

[paradox3]

Remembering that in most cases Paul has a pre-existing relationship with the places he sends letters (often he has visited the place in person at an earlier date) it is quite likely that the letter is serving to reinforce what he told them previously rather than introduce them to this new faith.

Good point. I seem to recall there was one letter from Paul to people he didn't actually know. Was it Romans?

 

[unsafe]

The first line tells you that these Galatians already knew that justification was by Faith ---and not by works of the law but they were falling away from the Gospel message ----

This demonstrated what Carnal Christians are like -----still on the milk of the Scripture ----double minded in their thinking and unstable in their stance ---trying to mix the Law with Grace ---and falling away can happen easily -----

So because they already heard the Gospel Paul is asking how did they receive the Holy Spirit by the works of the Law or by Hearing the Word of Faith ----

Saving Faith comes by hearing the Word and that is the only way now they can be in right standing with God -----the works of the law are no longer in place for people who have received Jesus in their heart ----