Wisdom Calls (and chides) : Proverbs 1:20-33

[Mendalla]

Link to the passage: Bible Gateway passage: Proverbs 1:20-33 - New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition

The second half of the opening chapter of Proverbs presents an interesting bit of imagery. We have Wisdom in the streets, chiding people for failing to listen to and follow her. She also warns about the consequences of not listening:

I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when panic strikes you,
27 when panic strikes you like a storm
and your calamity comes like a whirlwind,
when distress and anguish come upon you.

And then goes on to suggest that when we experience calamity, Wisdom can even abandon us, i.e. further lack of wisdom making things worse again.

Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer;
they will seek me diligently but will not find me.

And she is right, I think. How many times have humans brought disaster upons themselves by failing to heed wisdom? How often is calamity magnified by further lack of wisdom?

She finally concludes, "but those who listen to me will be secure and will live at ease without dread of disaster."

So we can look at her lengthy cataloguing of the consequences of not listening to wisdom and learn the importance of listening to wisdom.

But do we? It seems to me we can see a lot of folly and lack of wisdom in the world today. So c. 2400 years after these words were written (Britannica suggest chapters 1-19 date to the 4th century BCE), Wisdom's stern rebukes still resonate, I think.

What about you?

 

[Waterfall]

For a minute I thought I was in the Trump thread...lol.

 

[Luce NDs]

Ima Gene ... stop and be still ... calmed and processing? This may go on for quite a step ... others may fall over it ...

 

[Mendalla]

(PS. While I love Waterfall's quite on point joke, let's keep the US politics chatter to a minimum in this thread. It's about a broader philosophical and theological question, not another Biden-Trump battleground. And, yes, that's an official ruling by me as moderator of this forum.)

 

[Luce NDs]

Ignore; until it ghost away ... gestalt? Stopped up ... Bung?

 

[unsafe]

​

Wisdoms Rebuke
In verse 22 we see the description of 3 types of people ----

The Amplified Bible describes it the best

22
“How long, O naive ones [you who are easily misled], will you love being simple-minded and undiscerning?

How long will scoffers [who ridicule and deride] delight in scoffing,

How long will fools [who obstinately mock truth] hate knowledge?

I say
The Naive ones like their ignorance more than pursuing Wisdom

The Scoffers are those who are proud and haughty who boast about their rejection of God's Wisdom

The Fools are those people who are ignorant and stubborn and have a lack of desire to seek God's Wisdom

So to pursue God's Wisdom on must be willing to change their direction of pursuing silliness and turn to God and His Wisdom ----

Wisdom is offered but if rejected these people cannot and should not expect to call on God's Wisdom when a crisis happens to them and expect Wisdom to be there at their beck and call --
These people did not choose the Fear of the Lord which is the beginning of Wisdom and Knowledge --to reject this choice is to reject Wisdom ----

The reason for the destruction of the sinner is by their own choice -----one eats the fruit that they have sown ----

Whosoever turns and listens to the call of Wisdom will live in safety and be secure without the the fear of evil in their midst ----and will live with peace in their heart -----

The Wicked persons mind will be full of worry --anxiety and fear when a crisis comes knocking at their door ----

Which side do you want to be on ---Wisdom or Worry ----????

 

[Luce NDs]

What an odd presentation about un-worried minds that need t be vacated to disperse the emotions like fear ... shed the on the surroundings ... let the Mule take the load as an unconscious diversion! Dippy spot in the whole thing ... a point where something went down ... will it rise again or form a bright brickwork ... in the sunshine. Sunshine made of unseen photons ... can't be possible ... thus deflected ... like a hockey game ... dangerous ... in short impression you could be out of here in the opposing vector ... duos? Humor comes in shades ... like four 'ors men ... bote and 2 inn it ... quintessence! Expect sour apples for those that look on ...

 

[jimkenney12]

This is a great passage. Federal governments shutting down epidemic preparations 5-10 years ago. Global failures starting 20 years ago to address climate change. Bre X. Crypto scams. Afghanistan.

Pride. Greed Hate. Fear. People and governments too often put fear and greed ahead of wisdom in making decisions.

And applying Wisdom is hard work. Wisdom requires learning about the situation, analysing, and making sacrifices of some wants in pursuing what is wise. Wisdom is putting the reality of the world ahead ahead of our wishes.

It is not fun.

 

[Luce NDs]

This is a great passage. Federal governments shutting down epidemic preparations 5-10 years ago. Global failures starting 20 years ago to address climate change. Bre X. Crypto scams. Afghanistan.

Pride. Greed Hate. Fear. People and governments too often put fear and greed ahead of wisdom in making decisions.

And applying Wisdom is hard work. Wisdom requires learning about the situation, analysing, and making sacrifices of some wants in pursuing what is wise. Wisdom is putting the reality of the world ahead ahead of our wishes.

It is not fun.

And no one would believe that the empire could fall ... brutae? Comes in TU's ... all together? They couldn't ... because one had to be a winner! The MAGA Theory ... that causes the other 98% to lose it ... thus insane and maddening circumstance ... its where we're at ... self generated because we wouldn't leave the greater self alone ... so the greater psyche failed ... they beat it with emotions!

 

[BetteTheRed]

And no one would believe that the empire could fall

This appears to be one of humanity's great flaws. The inability to conclude that all empires fall. And the specific blindness at present seems to be the decline of the American Empire, which should worry Canadians, at least a little.

 

[Mendalla]

This appears to be one of humanity's great flaws. The inability to conclude that all empires fall.

Actually, after some reading and listening on the subject, I am increasingly of the view that the best historical comparator for our time is not the fall of an empire, but the end of the late Bronze Age when multiple events sent a globalized order linking the Aegean, Asia Minor, Near and Middle East, and Egypt into chaos. Several societies fell (e.g. Mitanni, the Hittites, some or all of the Canaanite kingdoms), others went through hard times (e.g. Egypt). Some rebooted (e.g. Assyria fell into chaos, then returned as the Neo-Assyrian Empire). Thus the name "Bronze Age Collapse" sometimes given to this era in history. Because I don't think it is just America that is in trouble here. Our entire globalized, interconnected world is. Even seemingly ascendant societies like China are showing serious weaknesses.

But from the standpoint of the thread, your quote above still holds. We as a species and civilization are bad at learning from history, at least in a productive way that might help us understand how it is relevant to our own time. And being able to learn from history would certainly be a form of wisdom.

(References: Eric H. Cline's 1177 and After 1177. The former covers the Bronze Age Collapse and the globalized world that preceded it, the latter picks up the story afterwards, showing how new societies were built and some old ones rebuilt).

 

[Luce NDs]

It is like the word "syndrome" which is a matter of points and how to make them communicate or connect ... even metaphorically if you cannot make a point receive information ...

Some biologists even say trees connect through steroids and neural patterns, the pious will disagree and not even query ...

Then there is James Burke on Connections! It may be the same thing just repeated back after making rounds ... archaic g' ecko ... critter of the dark ... their appearance disturbs many folk! In primitive form they transfer genetic data ... scream into the night and listen! Where does that call go? Its a great and vast power of the unknown and thus psyche messages are lost ... basic lost sole as it goes down ...

One must probe into this matter, unknown, even if mysterious, etc. Some if deaf use a brass Aerie! A metallic nest for thoughts ... could be a racket ...

Imagine the abstract if everything was connected ... as incomplete would be be expected to contribute? Many say n ... its mine ... a deep thing! Much is subtle until folk open up ... hypo?

 

[jimkenney12]

Agreed that a complex global society with increased inequity and inadequate responses to environmental and other growing problems is heading to a collapse. I see our acreage as providing a little bit of insurance if it happens while I am alive.

 

[Luce NDs]

Agreed that a complex global society with increased inequity and inadequate responses to environmental and other growing problems is heading to a collapse. I see our acreage as providing a little bit of insurance if it happens while I am alive.

Beware invasive implants are innate! It is right in NU's to believe we are separate form the initial corruption as the spot imploded ... whilst we believed it was going the other way ... the exterior was still coming at us ... explains the red-blue shift! In the medium a green zone ... hard to explain without dragons ...

If free you are declared out-of-it ... when potentially in the Uncertainty Clause you may not be what you believe ... due to light shift! Mass less bounce ... unheard-of ... that Golden Touch Ah? Read intuit ...

 

[JayneWonders]

And applying Wisdom is hard work. Wisdom requires learning about the situation, analysing, and making sacrifices of some wants in pursuing what is wise. Wisdom is putting the reality of the world ahead ahead of our wishes.

It is not fun.

In times when things blow up whether political, family or work, it is easy to say "if only YOU had done blahblahblah" when we said x years ago, it was the wise thing to do". Yet, often is the case in any situation, there are multiple factors engaged, and seldom is there an absolute clear path.

So,what we have is a stacking of "learning about the situation, analysing, and making sacrifices of some wants in pursuing what is wise".
Sometimes we learn more as we go, and so, the learning may include learning more due to scientific breakthroughs.

When thalidomide came on the scene, it was seen as a great solution for women who were deathly ill, as evidence start showing up of consequences..adjustments were made to the disbursement, but, also to testing. Wisdom was there. Was wisdom there in the discovery, probably.

I think that i would add is wisdom is murky. It lives in a rapidly moving river, with whirpools and weirs.

 

[Mendalla]

I think that i would add is wisdom is murky. It lives in a rapidly moving river, with whirpools and weirs.

Wisdom where something like science (e.g. medicine) is concerned is applying the best available knowledge with a weather eye to the fact that our understanding could change. Science is a method of obtaining knowledge and part of that method is continually revisiting theories and technologies based on new observations (e.g. how a medicine performs in the field vs. in trials) so being wise there requires keeping up.

Wisdom on the part of drug regulators would be passing a drug based on the best available, scientifically obtained safety information and a good analysis of possible risk vs. the benefit to the patient.

Wisdom on the part of legislators and the judiciary would be staying out of the regulators' and researchers' way and letting those who understand science and medicine to make the decisions. Sadly, I foresee a future coming where legislators and judges bypass regulators to decide these things based on politics and ideology rather than science.

 

[Luce NDs]

In times when things blow up whether political, family or work, it is easy to say "if only YOU had done blahblahblah" when we said x years ago, it was the wise thing to do". Yet, often is the case in any situation, there are multiple factors engaged, and seldom is there an absolute clear path.

So,what we have is a stacking of "learning about the situation, analysing, and making sacrifices of some wants in pursuing what is wise".
Sometimes we learn more as we go, and so, the learning may include learning more due to scientific breakthroughs.

When thalidomide came on the scene, it was seen as a great solution for women who were deathly ill, as evidence start showing up of consequences..adjustments were made to the disbursement, but, also to testing. Wisdom was there. Was wisdom there in the discovery, probably.

I think that i would add is wisdom is murky. It lives in a rapidly moving river, with whirpools and weirs.

Ha, Imagine that as the powers comes down from the mountain ... eddies! It all goes round even though the church fathers wanted it to be all about them ... many still do ...

It seems there is a story of Elisha and Elijah to goes into this vector ... and hopping from stone to stone ... function 'f rogue ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Wisdom where something like science (e.g. medicine) is concerned is applying the best available knowledge with a weather eye to the fact that our understanding could change. Science is a method of obtaining knowledge and part of that method is continually revisiting theories and technologies based on new observations (e.g. how a medicine performs in the field vs. in trials).

Wisdom on the part of regulators would be passing a drug based on the best available, scientifically obtanined safety information and a good risk analysis vs. the benefit to the patient.

Wisdom on the part of legislators and the judiciary would be staying out of the regulators' and researchers' way and letting those who understand science and medicine to make the decisions. Sadly, I foresee a future coming where legislators and judges bypass regulators to decide these things based on politics and ideology rather than science.

There were some old philosophers that declared this in alternate language ... medium would be controlled and out of hands f the common folk ... thus underground lines of communication ... Lost Horizon? So it departed ... we return to experience things lost ... down the vortex of Timaeus? Hoo dahth aught ...

Thus sift treads in the Kush ...

 

[JayneWonders]

Wisdom where something like science (e.g. medicine) is concerned is applying the best available knowledge with a weather eye to the fact that our understanding could change. Science is a method of obtaining knowledge and part of that method is continually revisiting theories and technologies based on new observations (e.g. how a medicine performs in the field vs. in trials) so being wise there requires keeping up.

Wisdom on the part of drug regulators would be passing a drug based on the best available, scientifically obtained safety information and a good analysis of possible risk vs. the benefit to the patient.

Wisdom on the part of legislators and the judiciary would be staying out of the regulators' and researchers' way and letting those who understand science and medicine to make the decisions. Sadly, I foresee a future coming where legislators and judges bypass regulators to decide these things based on politics and ideology rather than science.

Does Wisdom know everything at the time, and we are ignoring Wisdom, or does Wisdom evolve, as humans learn more or shift their understandings?

 

[Mendalla]

Does Wisdom know everything at the time, and we are ignoring Wisdom, or does Wisdom evolve, as humans learn more or shift their understandings?

In my understanding, Wisdom is using our knowledge and skills to live in right relationship to ourselves (yes, self-knowledge factors into it, I would argue), others, the world/universe, God (if we are theist) rather than being a specific set of knowledge itself. So there is a constant component to it in that living in right relationship reflects on values and ideas that are not necessarily (but could be) changing, but recognizing and dealing with evolving knowledge, evolving beliefs, changing life situations, changing world situations is part of Wisdom, too. Sometimes it is as simple as doing the right thing at the right time. Other times, it requires some complex thought about a situation. Recognizing complexity and simplicity is part of Wisdom, I guess.

That's kind of a braindump there. Might evolve as I think more. Thanks for chiming in on this thread. I have been debating whether to do more of these based on how quiet it has been.