GENESIS: Snoopy's Short & Snappy Review

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Could you imagine a minister or priest today killing a lamb on the alter?
One of the theological understandings of communion that has appeared in the church (IIRC most common in the Middle Ages in Europe) was that everytime the Mass was said/sung and the bread was broken the sacrifice of Jesus was happening again. SO not an actual blood flowing sacrifice but thematically similar.
 
I believe the projects were talking about human sacrifice...when the pagans sacrificed their first born?
NO the prophets are speaking to the religious practices of the Israelite or Judean kingdoms in which they lived and worked. Those kingdoms did not have a history of human sacrifice but of animal sacrifice (sacrifices for a variety of ritual purposes).
 
What pagans ever did that? None that I know of. Human sacrifice wasn't common in most cultures of the region. It happened, but was not anything so routine, more of a thing that happened for special occasions or dire emergencies. The Romans hated it with a passion and was one of the charges they used when they went after the Druids and some other cultural groups.
During a battle with the Israelites, the king of Moab, gave his first born son as a human sacrifice.
2 Kings 3:27 At the time, Israelites we're not permitted to do this.
There is also Jephthah sacrificing his virgin daughter in The Book of Judges, chapter 11, to keep a vow to God that if he wins the war with the Ammonites, he will sacrifice the first person that comes to his door. And that was his daughter.

In Judah, two of the kings, Ahaz (2 Kings 16:3) and Manasseh ( 2nd Chronicles 33:6) sacrificed their sons.
In the middle east some of the more arid communities and religions were agricultural based and human sacrifice was used to ensure good crops by mixing blood with the soil.
Plutarch, Orosius, Tertullian and others mention the practice and well as Greeks and Romans mentioning infant sacrifice in Carthage and Phoenicia (these two places are controversial)
 
Abraham knows from the start that this is just a test with no harm meant for Isaac, whom God has already promised will be the seed of a great nation.
(1) Abraham tells the young men he and Isaac will both return from worshiping God and offering the sacrifice (22:5).
(2) He tells Isaac God will provide the lamb.
So the story functions both as a critique of Canaanite human sacrifice and a lesson on divine testing.
 
2 Kings 3:27 At the time, Israelites we're not permitted to do this.
There is also Jephthah sacrificing his virgin daughter in The Book of Judges, chapter 11, to keep a vow to God that if he wins the war with the Ammonites, he will sacrifice the first person that comes to his door. And that was his daughter.

In Judah, two of the kings, Ahaz (2 Kings 16:3) and Manasseh ( 2nd Chronicles 33:6) sacrificed their sons.
All one offs and all Jewish, not pagan.
Plutarch, Orosius, Tertullian and others mention the practice and well as Greeks and Romans mentioning infant sacrifice in Carthage and Phoenicia (these two places are controversial)
There is some archaeological evidence, too, but a couple related (Carthage started as a Phoenician colony) kingdoms practicing infant sacrifice is a far cry from "pagans sacrificing their first born" which implies it was a normal practice. That's one specific culture, not "pagans". Remember that "pagan" is a very broad and somewhat ill-defined term that generally encompasses any European or Middle Eastern religion that's not part of the Abrahamic line.
 
Im
All one offs and all Jewish, not pagan.

There is some archaeological evidence, too, but a couple related (Carthage started as a Phoenician colony) kingdoms practicing infant sacrifice is a far cry from "pagans sacrificing their first born" which implies it was a normal practice. That's one specific culture, not "pagans". Remember that "pagan" is a very broad and somewhat ill-defined term that generally encompasses any European or Middle Eastern religion that's not part of the Abrahamic line.
I'm not sure why you feel those are legitimate reasons, how would anyone be a Jew in Abraham's time?During Abraham's time, people were still worshiping Baal, Yahwah, Ashera and Moloch...and some combined other God's with Yahwah didn't they....so some may have continued with sacrifice?
 
Im
I'm not sure why you feel those are legitimate reasons, how would anyone be a Jew in Abraham's time?During Abraham's time, people were still worshiping Baal, Yahwah, Ashera and Moloch...and some combined other God's with Yahwah didn't they....so some may have continued with sacrifice?
I was not suggesting anything about legitimacy. I was suggesting that your implication that child sacrifice was some kind of norm in paganism was a gross exaggeration. It may have happened in specific cultures, but human sacrifice in general was not practiced any more widely in "pagan" religions than in Abrahamic traditions. And, lets face it, our revulsion at the idea of human sacrifice is itself cultural. If you were a pre-colonial Aztec or a Carthaginian (assuming they really did practice infant sacrifice) you might see the idea of not making such sacrifices as horrible and inviting the anger of the gods or something. We have the benefit of centuries/millennia of our cultural ancestors turning away from that practice.
 
Isaac's story suggests he was highly traumatized by the event. A servant gets s wife for him. His wife provides most of the leadership. He is blind relatively early in life.

The sacrifice of children, especially first born children, seemed to be common practice in Palestine. It was partly to show trust in that god to provide more children.
 
(1) Abraham tells the young men he and Isaac will both return from worshiping God and offering the sacrifice (22:5).
Yes he says they will return to the servants but I thought this was a ruse.

(2) He tells Isaac God will provide the lamb.
Yes again he makes that statement but I thought it was a ruse. Possibly to keep Isaac from rebelling.

Isaac seems resigned to his fate by the time Abraham ties him up and places the wood on him.
 
Looking beyond this passage to the 'history' of the narrative as a whole we may want to consider the PAssover story where all the Egyptian firstborn were slain. IIRC one of the purposes of sacrifices in TOrah was to make a sacrifice of an animal in lieu of the firstborn child as a remembrance that in the passing over of the Israelite houses their firstborn were saved.
 
I was reading that in some religions of the time that the children and parents both had to agree....not all but some.
 
Looking beyond this passage to the 'history' of the narrative as a whole we may want to consider the PAssover story where all the Egyptian firstborn were slain. IIRC one of the purposes of sacrifices in TOrah was to make a sacrifice of an animal in lieu of the firstborn child as a remembrance that in the passing over of the Israelite houses their firstborn were saved.
To say nothing of Matthew's Gospel.

Sorry, I really don't want to get into the NT in Snoopy's forum but I can't help noticing some of these parallels.

As my Irish grandmother used to say, they are as close as "damn" is to swearing.:)

The expression meant two things were not identical but they might as well be.
 

What does the Bible say about child sacrifice?​


The horrific practice of child sacrifice has been committed throughout the world for thousands of years. Generally, the sacrifice of a child was intertwined with the worship of a pagan deity, often a fertility god. Worshipers sought to obtain a blessing from their god(s) or to confirm or complete a vow taken in the name of the god.

Ancient Aztecs, Incas, and a few other peoples in South and Central America practiced child sacrifice. The same for the Druids of Europe. The city of Carthage in North Africa contains evidence of child sacrifice related to the worship of Ba’al Hammon, a god imported from Phoenicia. Many Roman writers refer to this barbaric act in Carthage.

The Bible contains the heart-breaking tale of child sacrifice practiced in the name of Molech (also spelled Moloch or Molek), a god of the Ammonites. Molech worship was practiced by the Ammonites and Canaanites, who revered Molech as a protecting father figure. Images of Molech were made of bronze, and their outstretched arms were heated red-hot. Living children were then placed into the idol’s hands and died there or were rolled into a fire pit below. Some sources indicate a child might also be “passed through the fire” prior to the actual sacrifice in order to purify or baptize the child. Molech worship occurred in the Hinnom Valley near Jerusalem. Because of this, the valley became associated with the idea of Tophet, or hell (Isaiah 30:33; Jeremiah 19:12; Mark 9:45).

God prohibited Israel from child sacrifice in general and Molech worship in particular. Leviticus 20:2-5 states, “Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek.’” Many other Old Testament passages affirm God’s zero-tolerance for child sacrifice.

Sadly, King Solomon became involved in this horrendous practice, as recorded in 1 Kings 11:4-11, “As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites. So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD. . . . On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites. . . . The LORD became angry with Solomon because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice. Although he had forbidden Solomon to follow other gods, Solomon did not keep the LORD’s command.”

Later, the evil king Manassah offered his own son as a sacrifice (2 Kings 21:6), as did King Ahaz (2 Chronicles 28:1-4). The people of Judah participated in this crime against their own sons—a sin so “detestable” that God said it had never even crossed His mind (Jeremiah 32:35). Child sacrifice was one reason for the Babylonian captivity (verse 36).

Some critics of the Bible point to the story of Abraham, who laid his son Isaac on an altar and prepared to sacrifice him as directed by God (Genesis 22:1-14). However, in this case, God was testing the obedience and faith of Abraham. God stopped him from actually following through and provided a ram as a substitute sacrifice.

Today, child sacrifice is practiced throughout the world. There has been a resurgence of child sacrifice in Uganda. Witch doctors have been implicated in the mutilation and death of children who were killed in an effort to bring good fortune and wealth to those willing to pay for it. There is also a correlation between child sacrifice and modern-day abortion. Unprecedented numbers of children have been “sacrificed” at the hands of abortionists for the sake of convenience, immorality, or pride.
Hundreds of thousands of babies have been killed so that their parents can maintain a certain lifestyle. God hates “hands that shed innocent blood” (Proverbs 6:17), and we can be sure that God will judge this horrendous sin.
 
Yeah, child sacrifice and abortion are two quite separate issues and the latter does not impinge on this story.
 
Very interesting discussion today, folks! I thought the Abraham and Isaac story might generate a lot of comments.

Atheists love it to demonstrate the unreasonableness of God. :rolleyes:
 
Very interesting discussion today, folks! I thought the Abraham and Isaac story might generate a lot of comments.

Atheists love it to demonstrate the unreasonableness of God. :rolleyes:
Of course, an atheist could also read it as Abraham being seriously delusional and mildly homicidal. ;)
 
In wars, it is often the mothers who push hardest to have their sons go off to war. It raises their status with other mothers. Samuel Clemens wrote a short commentary about the American participation in WW I including a reference to mothers.

A positive about this story is reminding people God is not a stuffed toy god, but is one who offers much and demands much.
 
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