Making All Things New: (Revelation 21: 1-8)

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paradox3 said:
I don't think Jesus was just talking about his own end.

But he also predicted his own death and resurrection. Ditto the destruction of the Temple. He did a lot of predicting LoL
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Was some of it self-fulfilling prophecy, maybe? Like, he knew he was taking certain risks.
(Bouncing between threads and tired lol)

I feel like Jesus also called on people to take risks to challenge the status quo. Arguably his tactics were a tad aggressive by today’s standards - which is, in my opinion, not good for the literal minded and disturbed people to take on.
 
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Kimmio Laughterlove said:
Was some of it self-fulfilling prophecy, maybe? Like, he knew he was taking certain risks.
(Bouncing between threads and tired lol)
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No worries. I am happy to have your input. I definitely think Jesus knew he was taking certain risks. I even think he might have been deliberately provocative when he overturned those tables in the Temple.

Interesting that John puts a very different spin on this story. He places the Temple incident at the beginning of Jesus's ministry and calls it a sign.
 
paradox3 said:
No worries. I am happy to have your input. I definitely think Jesus knew he was taking certain risks. I even think he might have been deliberately provocative when he overturned those tables in the Temple.

Interesting that John puts a very different spin on this story. He places the Temple incident at the beginning of Jesus's ministry and calls it a sign.
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Didn’t he mean “scene”? He created a scene lol.

I need a nap lol
 
He did it in a way - or the writers thought of it in a way - that shows us he was living in violent times. Going into the temple with whips and such. I just think putting emphasis on the violence hasn’t turned out well. Even after he said we need to love God and neighbour and that’s it, people have made Revelation the primary gospel and it’s not but they’d like to steer things toward the end.

If he was here I’d explain that to him (and he is in a sense). We could talk it out.

Love doesn’t fit with “I wish Christ would visit death and destruction upon the earth and its inhabitants so that only I and others who hold my beliefs get to go to heaven.”
 
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Mendalla ----has a point for sure --no one knows the day or hour ---and no one who speculates a time should be listened to ---God has a plan for His Jewish Nation and this World and only He knows when the time will come to pass ----

What I do see is----- a big increase in the frequency of the storms and other seismic activity and people who say they have never seen such devastation in all their years living on this planet ---something is happening ---so we wait in anticipation -----

People need to wise up about listening to ------man can save the planet bullcrap---man made climate change and all the stupidness being shoved down people's throats --This planet will be destroyed by God alone not any man ----

Jesus talked about Birth Pangs -----storms coming closer together and more violent -----which is happening in these days ----

Strong's Concordance
ódin: a birth pang

Usage: the pain of childbirth, acute pain, severe agony, a snare.
HELPS Word-studies
5604 ōdín – properly, the pain of childbirth (travail); (figuratively) the pain necessary to open up (introduce) something new, i.e. to bring in more.

[5604 (ōdín) suggests intense suffering (similar to birth pain) – hence, "to suffer greatly, great pain" (L & N, 1, 24.87) like "a birth-pang, travail-pain; figuratively, extreme suffering"



We see here the increase in storm activity ---read all yourselves I just posted this part

www.motherjones.com

8 charts that show how climate change is making the world more dangerous

Disasters including storms, floods, and heatwaves have increased fivefold since the 1970s, UN finds.
www.motherjones.com www.motherjones.com

8 Charts That Show How Climate Change is Making the World More Dangerous​

Disasters including storms, floods, and heatwaves have increased fivefold since the 1970s, UN finds​


This story originally appeared in The Guardian and is republished here as part of the Climate Desk collaboration.

Forget the future. The world already is nearly five times as dangerous and disaster prone as it was in the 1970s, because of the increasing risks brought by climate change, according to a new report from the World Meteorological Organization.

The first decade of the 21st century saw 3,496 natural disasters from floods, storms, droughts and heat waves. That was nearly five times as many disasters as the 743 catastrophes reported during the 1970s—and all of those weather events are influenced by climate change.

The bottom line: natural disasters are occurring nearly five times as often as they were in the 1970s. But some disasters—such as floods and storms—pose a bigger threat than others. Flooding and storms are also taking a bigger bite out of the economy. But heat waves are an emerging killer

1) We’re going to need a bigger boat—or flood defenses

climate-change-1_0.jpg



Key: Dark blue = floods. Light blue = mass movement wet (subsidence, rock falls, avalanches, and landslides). Green = storms. Yellow = drought. Magenta = extreme temperature. Orange = Wildfires
Flooding and mega-storms were by far the leading cause of disaster from 2000-2010. About 80 percent of the 3,496 disasters of the last decade were due to flooding and storms. Seas are rising because of climate change. So are extreme rain storms. There is growing evidence that warming temperatures are increasing the destructive force of hurricanes.


3) Floods are getting more costly

climate-change-3.png


Key: Dark blue = floods. Light blue = mass movement wet. Green = storms. Yellow = drought. Magenta = extreme temperature. Orange = Wildfires

Disasters were about 5.5 times more expensive by 2010 than they were in the 1970s, and most of that was because of the rising losses due to floods. The cost of disasters rose to $864 billion in the last decade.

I say -----the Climate is Changing but it is brought on by God not mankind----

God didn't say He wouldn't use Floods to get peoples attention ---He said He wouldn't Flood the whole earth again ------so He is using Fire in the end this time -----

This tells you -----God is in charge of the weather ------

Revelation 7 NIV​

144,000 Sealed​

7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.

2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea:

3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
 
144,000 out of 8 billion is a tiny number unless there are a lot of repeats in times and places, of this story. Still it’s such a small number being claimed there that there’s no sense speculating who is in and who is not. There are so many things we cannot take literally but can only speculate, it makes Revelation dangerous as a priority text in Christianity.
 
During his NDE, atheist Prof. Howard Storm was converted through an NDE during which he entered the threshold of Hell and was rescued by Jesus, whose loving rescue converted him and he became a UCC minister. He wrote about this experience and all the paranormal verifications of its authenticity in his book "My Descent into Death." But he left out the vision Jesus showed him of His messianic kingdom because he thought it might hurt his sales.

Prior to that Robert Monroe, founder of the Monroe Institute, describes his OBE vision of the future earth a few centuries from now. The Monroe Institute teaches people how to have out of body experiences and other advanced states of consciousness. Monroe was militantly anti-religious, but his vision of the future earth is virtually identical to the one shown Storm, yet neither knew about the other's vision! Might this be independent verification?

Here is the quirky vision both saw of the future earth a few centuries from now. The earth no longer has cities--office buildings, houses, highways, etc. Everyone lives in underground dwellings. Why? Was there a nuclear war? Fruits and vegetables are grown by the power of the mind as the people meditate over and handle the soil by their underground dwellings. Weather is also controlled by the power of group mind. Each community of such dwellings has a different focus--music, art, certain scientific projects, etc. Disease has been vanquished and no one dies of natural causes. Rather, people voluntarily pass on when they feel their mission on earth is complete.

There is one key difference in the 2 visions. In the NDE vision that converted Storm, all the people are energized and empowered for this life by the indwelling Christ. Does this represent Christ's second coming? Monroe, being militantly anti-religious, does not sense this in his vision. The fact that both visions are almost otherwise independently identical and so uniquely idiosyncratic has always fascinated me. This is the first image that comes to mind when I contemplate the second coming of Christ and His millenial kingdom.
 
Is the millenial kingdom here on earth then? Do the people who were raptured up to heaven remain there for the millenial age?
 
Is this the sequence of events?

End times
Rapture
Tribulation
Second Coming
Millenial age
Unbinding of Satan
Final judgment
New heaven and new earth

This is sounding to me like the people in heaven are with God after the rapture. But they won't be with Jesus because He's back on earth.

Where were the dead before this? Were they in a stage of non existence or were they in Paradise?
 
Looking at Matthew 24 as recommended by @unsafe

Oh yes. Wars, famines & earthquakes. Persecution of the disciples. False prophets. Lawlessness.

The Son of Man will come and gather his elect. Next will be judgement. The righteous will receive eternal life and others will depart into eternal punishment.

Now, I always thought that this was the end of the story! Evidently not! According to Revelation , the 1000 year period is still to come. Then more judgement and finally the new heaven and new earth.

Why didn't Jesus explain all this?.
 
It's easy to overlook the fact that John the seer's visions predict the fall of the Roman empire.
 
Kimmio Laughterlove said:
144,000 out of 8 billion is a tiny number unless there are a lot of repeats in times and places, of this story.
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Kimmio ---the 144,00 are the 12 tribes of Israel who are from the Jewish Nation who have not Received Jesus as there Lord and Saviour ------God Honors His Covenant with His Chosen Nation and Marks them and sends the out during the Tribulation to Preach the Gospel to all the unbelievers who are left here on this Planet after God Raptures all the Saints and takes them to Heaven -----these Jews are brought through the Tribulation unharmed and are saved by and through God Covenant with Israel ------such a Love story ---beautiful and shows God Grace and Mercy in keeping with His Covenant Promise with His Chosen Nation who Rejected Jesus in the beginning and were on their way to a place of destruction

All Jews belong to a tribe and God brings all the Jews back together in their right tribes --and uses them in the 7 year Tribulation period to Preach His Word to save unbelieving souls all over this world so they can reside in Heaven with Him and not go to a place of Torment -----

4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

I say ------These are all Jews -----

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000

How great is that ---
 
I went to Patmos during my Footsteps of St. Paul tour. They showed us the cave where John slept and may have experienced his visions. Next door was a little bookstore with the 3rd oldest manuscript of the Bible with beautiful gold lettering.
Apart from those wonderful perks, Patmos was disappointing. In John's day it was a barren island for conscripted labor in Roman mines. Today it's a vacation haven for wealthy Greeks, with lovely little cottages.
 
Mendalla said:
It's how many of a more scholarly bent interpret Revelation. It's not explicit but buried in the symbolism. The anti-Christ is Nero (or Domitian, or other nasty emperor) and so on.
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Exactly ----they have no a clue ----all speculation -----

scripture never identifies the Name of this AntiChrist -----

Great reading here

www.davidjeremiah.org

6 Answers to Questions About the Antichrist

Dr. David Jeremiah presents: Living in the Age of Signs - Online Destination.
www.davidjeremiah.org www.davidjeremiah.org

6 Answers to Questions About the Antichrist​

Who is the Antichrist? How will we recognize him? The Bible is clear that one man, the Antichrist, will rise up to unite the world under one government during the Tribulation. This global dictator will pose as an angel of light, just like his father the devil, but will later act out of his true, evil nature.

Here are six answers to questions about this future sign of the Apocalypse:

Who is the Antichrist?​

The Antichrist is a person who is against Christ. The prefix anti can also mean "instead of," and both meanings will apply to this coming world leader. He will overtly oppose Christ and at the same time pass himself off as Christ.

The Antichrist will aggressively live up to his terrible name. He will persecute, torture, and kill the people of God as he leads the armies of the world into the Battle of Armageddon. He will be the most powerful dictator the world has ever seen, making Caesar, Hitler, Mao, and Saddam seem tame by comparison.

Even though the Antichrist is identified by that name only four times in the Bible, he appears many more times under various aliases. He is also called:

"the promise that shall come" –Daniel 9:26 NKJV

"a fierce king"—Daniel 8:23 NLT

"a master of intrigue"—Daniel 8:23 NIV

"a despicable man" –Daniel 11:21 NLT

"a worthless shepherd"—Zechariah 11:16–17 NLT

"the one who brings destruction" –2 Thessalonians 2:3 NLT

"the lawless one" –2 Thessalonians 2:8 NKJV

"the evil man" –2 Thessalonians 2:9 NLT

"the Beast" –Revelation 13:1 NKJV

When he comes on the scene, people will flock to him like flies to honey, and they will do anything he asks.

www.davidjeremiah.org

6 Answers to Questions About the Antichrist

Dr. David Jeremiah presents: Living in the Age of Signs - Online Destination.
www.davidjeremiah.org www.davidjeremiah.org

How will he unite the nations?​

The prophet Daniel describes the Antichrist in these terms: "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast … And there … were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words. … He shall speak pompous words against the Most High" (Daniel 7:7–8, 25).

As Daniel says, the coming world leader will be renowned for this kind of eloquence, which will capture the attention and administration of the world.

Daniel goes on to tell us that not only will this golden–tongued orator speak in high–blown terms, but he will also speak arrogantly against God. The apostle John describes him similarly in the book of Revelation: "And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies" (Revelation 13:5).

Daniel continues his description of the Antichrist by telling us he is a man "whose appearance was greater than his fellows" (Daniel 7:20). In terms of his outward appearance, this man will be strikingly attractive. The combination of his magnetic personality, speaking ability, and extreme good looks will make him virtually irresistible to the masses. The apostle John expands on Daniel’s description of the Antichrist’s blasphemous acts by telling us that every living person will be required to worship this man. "He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as man as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed" (Revelation 13:15).

Finally, Revelation 13:1–8 describes the Antichrist as a Beast—an appropriate title for him. During the last 3½ years of the Tribulation, the Antichrist will personify Satan himself. Second Thessalonians 2:9 says, "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders." Step by step, the Antichrist will promote himself from a European leader, to a world leader, to a tyrannical global dictator, and finally to a god.

What is the "unholy trinity"?​

Satan is the first person and the father of the unholy trinity. The Antichrist will be the second member and the son of the unholy trinity. The False Prophet, the third member of the unholy trinity, will direct the worship and praise of the people back to the Antichrist (Revelation 13:11–12).

How does the Antichrist gain political power?​

His rise to power will be inconspicuous. It will not be noticed in the beginning and will hardly raise the attention even of the those who are closer to the center of action. He will rise out of the general population. John says, "Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns" (Revelation 13:1). The sea in biblical imagery stands for the general mass of humanity or, more specifically, the Gentile nations.

Whatever power the Antichrist has, he is allowed to have it by the overriding authority of Almighty God. As bad as the Tribulation will be, it will never be out of God’s control. There is a leash on Satan, and God is holding it. Satan will be able to do only that which God allows him to do during the Tribulation period.

Who will worship the Antichrist?​

According to Revelation 13:8, "all who dwell on the earth will worship him." Daniel 7:25 tells us that the Antichrist is a cultic leader. "He shall speak pompous words against the Most High … and shall intend to change times and law." He will speak out against the true God of heaven. The language suggests that he will try to raise himself to the level of God and make declarations from that position.

Second Thessalonians 2:4 says the Antichrist "opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." He will accept the worship of the people of the world.

What will happen to the Antichrist as he leads the Battle of Armageddon?​

During the Battle of Armageddon, the world will become increasingly discontented with the leadership of this global dictator who has gone back on every promise he made. Major segments of the world will begin to assemble their own military forces and rebel against him.

The king of the South and his armies will be the first to come after the Antichrist, followed by the armies of the North. "At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him: and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships" (Daniel 11:40).

The Antichrist will put down some of the these first attempts at rebellion against him. But before he can move toward his goal of destroying Israel and Jerusalem, something happens: "But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many" (Daniel 11:44). The Bible leaves no doubt as to the source of the news that so disturbs enrages the Antichrist: "Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared" (Revelation 16:12).

The Euphrates is one of the greatest rivers in the world. It flows from the mountains of western Turkey, through Syria, and continues through the heart of Iraq, not far from Baghdad. It eventually unites with the Tigris to become the Shatt el Arab, and finally empties into the Persian Gulf. The entirety of the Euphrates flows through Muslim territory. In Genesis 15 and Deuteronomy 11, the Lord specified that the Euphrates would be the easternmost border of the Promised Land. It serves both as a border and a barrier between Israel and her enemies.

With the disappearance of the Euphrates, the Antichrist will be vulnerable to attack by the kings of the east. Their arrival will mark the beginning of the greatest war of all history
 
Hey everybody
This is a fascinating conversation. Thanks for joining in. It is not easy to make sense of the sequence of events predicted in the NT but I am trying.

I am starting to think that an awful lot of Christian theology is based on the visions of just two dudes! I mean Paul, of course, and now the author of Revelation.

For some time I have believed we Christians seriously conflate the concepts of the Kingdom/ Kin-dom of God, an Afterlife, and the New Heaven and Earth.

And that's only the beginning. But let's keep talking.
 
unsafe said:
Kimmio ---the 144,00 are the 12 tribes of Israel who are from the Jewish Nation who have not Received Jesus as there Lord and Saviour ------God Honors His Covenant with His Chosen Nation and Marks them and sends the out during the Tribulation to Preach the Gospel to all the unbelievers who are left here on this Planet after God Raptures all the Saints and takes them to Heaven -----these Jews are brought through the Tribulation unharmed and are saved by and through God Covenant with Israel ------such a Love story ---beautiful and shows God Grace and Mercy in keeping with His Covenant Promise with His Chosen Nation who Rejected Jesus in the beginning and were on their way to a place of destruction

All Jews belong to a tribe and God brings all the Jews back together in their right tribes --and uses them in the 7 year Tribulation period to Preach His Word to save unbelieving souls all over this world so they can reside in Heaven with Him and not go to a place of Torment -----

4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

I say ------These are all Jews -----

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000

How great is that ---
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It’s not great because think of how many wouldn’t make it. There’s no reason to rejoice in it.
 
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