The UMC Schism Unfolds

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They've lost the essence of the adequate methods of the whole thing surviving ... comprehension of a loving/caring environment? This happens with excess anonymous activity ... an isolated condition berift of knowledge beyond the wee parts! Some say autonomous detrction that eats at itself ...

Imagine something that would destroy a civil construct! Oh Mi ... can the missing spots be filled? May relate to transliteration ... thus one has to work with the alien tongue! It is a phonetic enigma ... in some cases Cope Tic ...
 
Speaking of this subject:

MSN

www.msn.com

Basically, some churches are suing their conferences, arguing that the financial terms for disaffiliation are basically requiring them to pay a ransom to leave and they should be able to leave more easily.
 
My worst fears about the UMC schism are coming true. Ordinarily, our quadrennial General Conference would sort out the details of separation in a kind and equitable way. Due to the exploding growth of the more conservative international UMC, conservatives win most of the votes on divisive issues. But due to Covid and visa issues, this conference has not met for several years now. As a result, political power plays rule the day with no compassion. In some conferences, huge financial settlements for separation are being imposed on conservative churches that voted to leave, but must place themselves in financial jeopardy to afford this payoff. Other conferences have told wannabe departing churches that they can't leave. In practice this means that progressive pastors will be imposed on conservative churches who don't want them, probably forcing those churches to close for the sake of conscience. These power plays only embitter both sides even more and mutual respect is nowhere to be found. Meanwhile, both sides are withholding donations to UMCOR, which used to be the most socially effective American Protestant organization for meeting social needs such as malaria and natural disasters. Why can't both sides realize that the Christian thing to do is to allow both progressives and conservatives to create the kind of church they want? Sigh!
 
Mystic said:
My worst fears about the UMC schism are coming true. Ordinarily, our quadrennial General Conference would sort out the details of separation in a kind and equitable way. Due to the exploding growth of the more conservative international UMC, conservatives win most of the votes on divisive issues. But due to Covid and visa issues, this conference has not met for several years now. As a result, political power plays rule the day with no compassion. In some conferences, huge financial settlements for separation are being imposed on conservative churches that voted to leave, but must place themselves in financial jeopardy to afford this payoff. Other conferences have told wannabe departing churches that they can't leave. In practice this means that progressive pastors will be imposed on conservative churches who don't want them, probably forcing those churches to close for the sake of conscience. These power plays only embitter both sides even more and mutual respect is nowhere to be found. Meanwhile, both sides are withholding donations to UMCOR, which used to be the most socially effective American Protestant organization for meeting social needs such as malaria and natural disasters. Why can't both sides realize that the Christian thing to do is to allow both progressives and conservatives to create the kind of church they want? Sigh!
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I just hope the UCCan is watching and realizes that if/when the time comes for their conservative wing to split off, the more productive course will be to recognize the need for the separation and negotiate things in good faith. Of course, the UCCan has the additional headache of Parliament getting involved (there's a United Church of Canada Act). :rolleyes:
 
Mendalla said:
I just hope the UCCan is watching and realizes that if/when the time comes for their conservative wing to split off, the more productive course will be to recognize the need for the separation and negotiate things in good faith. Of course, the UCCan has the additional headache of Parliament getting involved (there's a United Church of Canada Act). :rolleyes:
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I am not sure about this split that you and others are predicting for our denomination.

The UMC schism sounds very painful for all.
 
The polarization of society fed by social media reduces the willingness of people to compromise. As more congregations and regional councils become affirming, some conservatives will get tired of feeling pushed to the margins.
 
jimkenney12 said:
The polarization of society fed by social media reduces the willingness of people to compromise. As more congregations and regional councils become affirming, some conservatives will get tired of feeling pushed to the margins.
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You talked about a Reformed and a Universalist group on another thread. I didn't get the impression the matter had anything to do with the affirming/ Affirming question.

Is this in fact what a conservative split-off would be all about???
 
Other potential prompts for separation include the abortion issue, pushy Progressives, either conservative or liberal exclusivists dominating the approval process for new Ministers. If a significant number of members are made to feel as though they do not belong, they will leave as a group.
 
jimkenney12 said:
The polarization of society fed by social media reduces the willingness of people to compromise. As more congregations and regional councils become affirming, some conservatives will get tired of feeling pushed to the margins.
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For UMC conservatives, the gay marriage debate is more about the perceived disrespect for the value and authority of Scripture than it is about human sexuality. If progressives stressed prayerful spirituality, transformation, and discipleship as much as they stress the pursuit of social justice, the current schism might never have erupted.

Conversely, for UMC progressives, the Bible-based opposition to gay marriage is more about a lack of loving acceptance of LGBTQ people just the way they are than it is about the sanctity of Bible-based marriage. Progress towards unity might be achieved if conservatives focused on the question,"Why should gay and lesbian couples be expected to be believe that we love and respect them just the way they are?" This question might lead to more gay and lesbian leadership roles in conservative church hierarchies. For example, one of my Western NY UMC churches was not officially "open and inclusive," but the music director and worship chair were both respected gays. If progressives sensed a more reconciling spirit in conservative UMC policies, they might be more willing to compromise on the question of church-performed gay and lesbian marriages.
 
Recall that God is divine and likes to cause divisiveness ... and thus the physical domain can be conquered and reality collapses! Nothing is left ... only the fantasy (some call it a dream)! The diabolical side collects the remnants ... something like biological recycle on larger scales ... beyond Mort's comprehension ... as if out there!

Mortal fallacy ...
 
The number of US UMC churches that have left the denomination is now over 2,400 and growing. The Council of Bishops has FINALLY convened a long-overdue meeting to deal with this crisis, its demoralizing effect, and the devasting lost revenue for social issues. Most of these departing churches have joined the more conservative new Global Methodist denomination:

religionnews.com

United Methodist bishops meet, look to pivot after 2,400+ churches disaffiliate

CHICAGO (RNS) — United Methodist bishops from across the globe are meeting this week for the first time in person since the COVID-19 pandemic.
religionnews.com religionnews.com

I created this post because of its implications for the UCCan membership vs. adherent issue on another thread. The UMC votes to depart have been reinforced by phone calls to disgruntled conservative voting members who haven't attended church in many years!
 
2400 churches seems like a lot. What percentage of total congregations does it represent?

iIRC projections were that about 8% of congregations would leave before the deadline.
 
Ah, well, another denomination votes itself into contemporary irrelevancy.

I know a lot of young people. I have kids, I hang out with kids. They think we're totally f***ed. And totally irrelevant.
 
paradox3 said:
2400 churches seems like a lot. What percentage of total congregations does it represent?

iIRC projections were that about 8% of congregations would leave before the deadline.
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In 2020 there were 30,500 UMC churches in the USA. so that's only about 7% so far.
But more defections are expected due to pressure from the December deadline. Some UMC mega-churches are among the defectors and many other disgruntled members who chose to stay have cut off their financial support of UMC boards and agencies. But by far the biggest losses come from international UMC churches which are overwhelmingly more conservative.
 
Too bad, so sad.

I confess to a certain adoring of denominations shooting themselves in the foot. It's just so intrinsically unloving and cowardly at the same time. Almost pathetically 'cute', like a faded my favorite pony.
 
There's a lot of this going on right now, it seems. When I watch the Useful Charts series on the family tree of Christian denominations, "and this denomination split from this one because too conservative/not conservative enough" seems to come up a lot with new denominations that have appeared over the past few decades.

BetteTheRed said:
I confess to a certain adoring of denominations shooting themselves in the foot. It's just so intrinsically unloving and cowardly at the same time. Almost pathetically 'cute', like a faded my favorite pony.
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Just remember that a lot of people thought the UCCan would go this way during the '88 debate over ordaining gays. And some did leave, though others stayed and just kind of distanced themselves from the mainstream of the denomination.
 
Mendalla said:
There's a lot of this going on right now, it seems. When I watch the Useful Charts series on the family tree of Christian denominations, "and this denomination split from this one because too conservative/not conservative enough" seems to come up a lot with new denominations that have appeared over the past few decades.


Just remember that a lot of people thought the UCCan would go this way during the '88 debate over ordaining gays. And some did leave, though others stayed and just kind of distanced themselves from the mainstream of the denomination.
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Never think I have forgotten. I'm an atheist. I adore my own congregational family. Should the institutional church continue to s**t itself, as it has for centuries, and as the RCC continues to bare it's intrinsically evil soul to the world, I will sit back with my own raised eyebrow.

I have no hope of entering eternal life. My eyebrow is always cocked.
 
Mystic said:
In a parallel development, just today a new report documents a precipitous decline in the 2nd largest progressive Protestant denomination in the USA--PCUSA:

www.foxnews.com

Liberal mainline church updates stats, reports another year in declining membership, churches: 'Not surprised'

The Presbyterian Church (USA) lost more than 100 churches and 53,000 members while losing 285 ministers.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com

Recent pro-LGTBQ legislation is said to be a major factor in the escalating decline.
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There's multiple Presbyterian denominations in the States now, too, right? I seem to recall that from somewhere, maybe UsefulCharts again.

I suspect that the decline of Christianity in the larger society is likely to lead to further fragmentation, at least in the short term. "Unity" is going to be less important than niche protection, I suspect. You'll have more and smaller overarching groups and more congregations going pure congregational with minimal connection to a traditional denomination. And you'll probably have more Christians identifying just as "Christian" without really assigning themselves more specifically than perhaps "Catholic", "Orthodox", or "Protestant". Which, in some ways, might not be a bad way for the faith to go in a post-Christendom era.
 
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