The Good Shepherd

[jimkenney12]

I thought I would be preaching on Good Shepherd Sunday, but there is not one this year in Lent. This post contains John 10:1-18 from the NRSVUE. I put bold letters at the end of each part of this reading. They will be referred to in the next post with my observations, comments, and questions.
The Good Shepherd: John 10:1-18 NRSVUE

This passage and similar passages bother me as my mind recognizes both the intent of this passage and awareness that shepherds raise sheep for food and wool.

10 “Very truly, I tell you, anyone who does not enter the sheepfold by the gate but climbs in by another way is a thief and a bandit. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 They will not follow a stranger, but they will run from him because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them. A

7 So again Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who came before me[a] are thieves and bandits, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the gate. Whoever enters by me will be saved and will come in and go out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. B

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand, who is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and runs away, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 The hired hand runs away because a hired hand does not care for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own, and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. And I lay down my life for the sheep. C

16I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. D

17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. 18 No one takes[b] it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again. I have received this command from my Father.” E

 

[jimkenney12]

A. This passage has several interesting elements and provokes several questions. There are bandits or thieves, sheep, the shepherd, the sheepfold, the gate, and the gate keeper. The sheep trust the shepherd who they recognize by voice who enters by the gate and run away from everyone else. The thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. “I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.” My questions begin with was it possible Jesus said this. As an itinerant preacher and healer, this passage sounds like gibberish. What is the sheepfold then? Who are the sheep that recognize him? Who is the thief? What is the gate?

To me it makes more sense that John wrote this for his community. His community was probably the sheepfold. John may have been the shepherd. Jesus might have been the gatekeeper and gate. Who was the thief?

B. Jesus is the gate. Who came before him?

C. Who are the hired hands? Who is the wolf? How does Jesus protect them? This paragraph seems to connect with Satan as the wolf. Did Jesus save the sheep/people through his crucifixion? Which people? Does this passage claim that the people who choose to accept Jesus as their saviour are the ones who recognize his words? Does this passage feed into predestination? Or does the choice to believe in Jesus make a person part of his flock?

D. This paragraph fits into my take on universalism. If Jesus is speaking as the Cosmic Christ or Logos, can the other sheepfolds include those who follow Buddhism or other religions? How will they be brought into the flock? Why would the author of John include this paragraph? What was happening in that time? Who were the other sheep?

E. One of the debates about the resurrection, assuming there was a resurrection, centered on how the resurrection happened. One side claims God was the agent. The other side, supported by this verse, claims Jesus did it himself. He was able to choose to accept death and able to end his death when he wanted. So he was not really dead? If he was really dead, what does being dead mean if you are human and God? I personally do not accept this claim made in this passage.

F. If this passage is totally the creation of John, what is its purpose?

G. This passage has been used for centuries to lift up Jesus as the Good Shepherd who cares for all of his sheep and it ties into Hebrew passages which describe God as a shepherd and good shepherd. The Jewish faith started as the faith of a community of shepherds. Preachers and others use this passage to comfort and assure people. And some people use it to promote exclusive salvation. It mainly intrigues me as a strange set of statements.

H. As a person with farm roots, this metaphor fails me. I know the livelihood of shepherds, including good shepherds, depends on the flock. I am unwilling to accept the belief that God or Holy Mystery or Spirit or whatever name we want to use actually needs anything from us except, perhaps, relationship.

 

[paradox3]

So much to consider here.

Your opening comments mention your awareness that sheep are raised for both wool and food. This can get problematic when we consider the tender care shepherds give their sheep.

Or does it? The flock still needs care to ensure it can fulfill its purpose in feeding the people.

Or do we think the people only ate fish in those days?

 

[jimkenney12]

I suspect the Jewish people were able to separate their imagery about God as Shepherd in a caring and leadership way from the role of shepherds in an agricultural way, just as Christians have done for almost 2000 years. This imagery has worked well in the Christian community. I wonder how it works outside the community. As a lateral thinker habitually connecting things, the imagery is troublesome for me. I have trouble keeping ideas in the box intended for them. It was not until today I fully realized how complicated this whole passage is.

 

[paradox3]

Jewish authors have pointed out that God's dietary laws serve to remind us that eating meat is a moral compromise.

Yes, I agree, this is one very complicated passage!

 

[Luce NDs]

Imagine the chaos in the Rabi's state when cracking open some of these bearers of sacred info!

To be opened with gentility ... thus unconscious when crossing??? Delirium blossoms ... to die on the eve of ... Omaha 'od Friday? Tis a dark day for some ... give or take a few!

 

[paradox3]

I suspect the Jewish people were able to separate their imagery about God as Shepherd in a caring and leadership way from the role of shepherds in an agricultural way, just as Christians have done for almost 2000 years. This imagery has worked well in the Christian community. I wonder how it works outside the community. As a lateral thinker habitually connecting things, the imagery is troublesome for me. I have trouble keeping ideas in the box intended for them. It was not until today I fully realized how complicated this whole passage is.

It could be that they saw no need to separate the imagery of God as shepherd from the agricultural context. Or that life was at a subsistence level and there was no room for sentimentality.

 

[unsafe]

This passage and similar passages bother me as my mind recognizes both the intent of this passage and awareness that shepherds raise sheep for food and wool.

They also raised them to be a Sacrifice to God to cover their sins for one years -----

From Google
Characteristics of Sheep
Sheep are Loyal , gentle, quiet, innocent animals. They do not give their shepherds a lot of problems.

What was the importance of sheep in biblical times?

Sheep were important animals to God's people in the Bible.
People raised sheep for wool, meat, and milk, and used their skins to make parchment to write on.
Sheep were also used as sacrifices to remind God's people that one day Jesus would give his life to make us right with God.

To Me -----this all seems fitting for Jesus to call His Children Sheep -----

 

[Waterfall]

Is Jesus actually comparing himself to , "The Shepherd of Hermes"?
a greek/roman god depicted by Hermes carrying a ram around his shoulder? This book of Hermes was left out of the NT but was very popular in early Christianity.

 

[paradox3]

@unsafe The sheep would have been very valuable to the people then

How are we valuable to God? Obviously we are not needed for the same purposes as the biblical sheep grazing on the land.

But I think we are needed by God for more than relationship. We are needed to do God's work in the world. To be the hands and feet of Christ, so to speak.

 

[unsafe]

How are we valuable to God?

My View
We are --very Valuable to God as we who are Reborn of the Spirit are God's vessel to do His Work which Glorifies Him and we are to be the Salt and the Light and allow His Love --Agape to shine in this dark world ------and we are to Preach the truth of His Word to all people so souls maybe saved to dwell in His Kingdom in their end ------When we do His Will we are very Valuable to God -----

 

[jimkenney12]

God is glorified by the heavens, the beauty in a lily or a bluebird's wing, the majesty of a mountain, a snowflake, the immense ocean, and much more. What do you mean by glorifying God,?

 

[paradox3]

My View
We are --very Valuable to God as we who are Reborn of the Spirit are God's vessel to do His Work which Glorifies Him and we are to be the Salt and the Light and allow His Love --Agape to shine in this dark world ------and we are to Preach the truth of His Word to all people so souls maybe saved to dwell in His Kingdom in their end ------When we do His Will we are very Valuable to God -----

What about those of us who are not Reborn of the Spirit as you understand it? Something tells me we are going to part company on this one.

Agreeing with the points you make about Salt and Light and so on.

 

[unsafe]

What do you mean by glorifying God,?

The good works we do are to glorify or honor God not us -----

Example ----
If an unbeliever does good works they glorify or honor themselves as they are away from God -----

So here we have a hard pieces of Scripture and can cause conflict here because God is Love and He loves all His Creation but we are born sinners and God cannot entertain Sinners -----it is hard to heard and accept but this is His Word --we can refuse to believe it or accept it

4 Bible Verses about Sin Separates From God
Source: 4 Bible verses about Sin Separates From God

Micah 3:4
Verse Concepts
Then they will cry out to the Lord,
But He will not answer them.
Instead, He will hide His face from them at that time
Because they have practiced evil deeds.

Isaiah 59:2
Verse Concepts
But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God,
And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

1 Corinthians 15:17
Verse Concepts
and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

Exodus 32:33
Verse Concepts
The Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.


So here is the difference
If a Believer ---
One who has been reborn of the Spirit -----does good works they do it by and through their Faith in God and God's faith propels the Believer to act so God gets the Glory or Honor for the good works done --------we are God's vessel through which the good works comes from --

The Good Samaritan is a good example of how His Faith will drive us to help others ------

God's faith needs action ------and Hebrews 11:6 says Without Faith you cannot even please God -----

Matthew 5:16
EXB
In the same way let your light shine ·before others [for people to see], so that they will see ·the good things you do [L your good deeds/works] and will ·praise [glorify; give honor to] your Father in heaven.

 

[unsafe]

What about those of us who are not Reborn of the Spirit as you understand it? Something tells me we are going to part company on this one.

Ya we will probably part company there --I explained it above on the post I did to answer jimkenney12 -----

 

[unsafe]

s Jesus actually comparing himself to , "The Shepherd of Hermes"?
a greek/roman god depicted by Hermes carrying a ram around his shoulder? This book of Hermes was left out of the NT but was very popular in early Christianity.

Never heard of this -----but interesting read on Got Questions ---thanks for posting ---made me look it up ---

What is the Shepherd of Hermas and should it be in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

What is the Shepherd of Hermas and should it be in the Bible? Does the Shepherd of Hermas present an accurate understanding of the end times?

www.gotquestions.org

What is the Shepherd of Hermas and should it be in the Bible?​

 

[jimkenney12]

Is God so needy that he needs to get credit for us doing good works?

 

[unsafe]

Is God so needy that he needs to get credit for us doing good works?

God is God and if He wants the Credit for Good works done then that is what He wants ---if we have a problem with that then we would have to talk to God and see if He answers our question ----God doesn't need us ---It is us who Need God -----that is my view -----

Here is a Question for you ---

Why do you think that God should just give everyone a free pass to live in sin and refuse His Son and still get into Heaven ----with no regard for Him at all -----

That baffles my Mind ----we expect so much from God but yet we don't give Him the time of Day -----we mock Him and His word ----we don't believe what He says is Truth -----we disobey Him etc --etc and we still expect Him to bow down to our needs and give us a free pass into heaven ----

We are a people today who just want and want and want -----and believe we are entitled to live the way we want to and end up in paradise -----unfortunately for us God doesn't see it that way ---

Would we just allow kids to run rampet and do as they please --disobeying us ---mocking us ----etc ----well If we do I don't think we are great parents -----just my view --God is our Spiritual Parent ----

 

[Mystic]

Is God so needy that he needs to get credit for us doing good works?

Here your quarrel is with Jesus:
"Let your light so shine before people, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven (Matthew 5:16)."

 

[jimkenney12]

Is this because God wants or needs the glory (reminds ne of American Gods by Neil Gaiman) or because living that way is good for us or for the sake of gaining new members for the community? Passages like this provide fodder for writers like Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchet.

I suspect the part about giving glory to our Father in heaven was added by someone after Jesus said the first part.

Is giving glory the same as praising or is it more than that?

Am I being subconsciously deliberately provocative??