Matthew 2 - They came bearing gifts

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Mendalla

Mendalla

Happy headbanging ape!!
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Epiphany is almost upon us so time for one last seasonal BPoTW. Matthew 2 gives us the story of the Magi visiting Jesus, then the flight to Egypt and eventual return. It is a story packed with symbolism, even if the historicity of some of it could be open to question.

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Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 2 - New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition

The Visit of the Magi - In the time of King Herod, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, magi from the east came to Jerusalem, asking, “Where is the child who has been born king of the Jews? For we observed his star in the east and have come to pay him homage.” When King Herod heard this...
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So who were these? Magi or, as Mystic suggested, someone more local.

Is their visit historical, or mythmaking?

What about the flight to Egypt? Did they flee to Egypt? Was it once again an attempt at making Jesus' story fulfill prophecy?

And the massacre of the innocents? If it happened, why did Josephus, who was no friend of the Herodians, leave it out? Did he just not know?

So much happening given that it is actually a fairly short chapter. What say you, WC2?

Basically, any of the events in this chapters are up for discussion: Wise men, gifts, Herod, the massacre, the flight to Egypt and return.
 
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And some comments from Mystic in the Luke thread that actually fit better here:

Mystic said:
(2) How might the Magi find the baby Jesus?
First, let's clear up some misconceptions.
(a) Many interpret "from the East" as a reference to Persia. In fact, horoscopes have been found at Qumran. So the Magi may have come from the much closer Essene community "east" of Jerusalem. The Magi know about the Messianic prophecy about Bethlehem in Micah 5:2 and would not need to "follow" a "star" to get there. They would encounter Jesus in the cave en route. Ancient Jews often used caves as a "house."
(b) Matthew need imply no more than 2 magi providing one small gift between them of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Popular legendizing reads 3 wealthy Persian Magi, each bearing 1 of the 3 gifts.
As for Herod's slaughter of Bethlehem baby boys, recall 2 facts:
(i) Herod became insanely paranoid in his later years and murdered many family members he suspected of scheming to replace him (so Josephus).
(ii) When you visit Bethlehem, the first thing that strikes you are the huge ruins of Herod's palace (the Herodium) that tower over the landscape there.
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I do like @Mystic's comments about the "Magi" actually being from something like the Essenes. Makes more sense in terms of their awareness of Jewish prophecy and their presence, period. I have not heard this theory before but it makes more sense than a bunch of Zoroastrian priests coming to honour a newborn Jewish king, even if the classic version might be a stronger propaganda tool (even non-Jews recognized him).
 
We had this lesson on Sunday in church. The minister drew a parallel between Moses leading his people out of bondage in Egypt and Christ leading us out of the bondage of sin.

First time I have encountered Jesus as the new Moses. Christmas we heard that Jesus was the second Adam. The first Adam being not just the guy in the creation story but all of us who have lost our way with God and require the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for our salvation.

Not saying I accept any or all of this theology. :rolleyes:
 
According to Herodotus, a Greek historian, the magi were one of the six tribes of people within a group called the Medes. Ive heard the magi were highly respected in the Orient as astrologers, which didnt have the same meaning as we have today, probably closer to astronomy.
 
The book of Daniel describes the magi as being able to interpret dreams.
Mathew describes them as going back to their own land and being from the east.
 
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Oh I just read something interesting, food for thought....according to Pope Benedict XV1( his interpretation I guess), the magi weren't following a star because they went straight to King Herods' palace, where they would expect to find the newborn son of a King. The Star was supposed to have just told them when he was born....so that must have been quite a star.
 
Although the idea of all boys under 2 years of age were to be slaughtered, seems to suggest that the star had appeared some time before, and the Magi had a considerable journey to make; it doesn't seem likely they were local, or all that close by.
 
I read or was told that a child at birth was counted as one year old so all boys under two would have been all boys under one.
 
According to Mystic, Matthew took a story of a real event and adjusted it to make it more grand as well as foreshadowing.

If there was a Jesus, and I am confident there was, we can be confident he grew up in Nazareth, and that Mary and Joseph were from Nazareth. Joseph almost certainly had a house in Nazareth. Surely registration did not require him staying in Bethlehem for several months. Why would he stay in Bethlehem?

I believe this story is not historical but it is symbolic. If the magi were from by the Dead Sea, I would expect the story teller to say that. If a story teller in Toronto was telling a story that included someone from Kingston, i would expect them to say Kingston, not the east.
 
Waterfall said:
The Star was supposed to have just told them when he was born....so that must have been quite a star.
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Keep in mind that prior to modern astronomy, any odd event into the heavens was often interpreted as being an omen. Halley's Comet, for instance, passed Earth in 1066 and appears on the Bayeux Tapestry as an omen of William I's victory at Hastings. Depending on the date you use, I have heard comets or a planetary alignment as being the "star" in this story.
 
What if Jesus was just iconic essence of a whispy omen ... and old Fue that appears now and then in history to teach the unteachable?


Thus intelligence becomes more and more subtle and unintelligible! Hypo in a theo pic sense ... perhaps pathos or even pathetic, requiring pathologists to bring us back from the edge ... ineffable?

Since w e can't say such things ... the legend of pagan BS or primal HS was buried in sacred dirt ... the very thing supporting lyres ... and you can stand there all day harping about the tense threads ... few listen to the twang! The mute function ... silence overwhelms!

Look at the chaos in the great house created by the Trumpeted one ... like the railway to heaving going off raels ... maybe due to the esteemed strut? Oncoming porgies' struddle ... politic'n of sorts! Stinking Muse IHC!
 
Let's consider the 3rd first century Christmas story, this one from Ignatius, the 3rd bishop of Antioch:

"The virginity of Mary and her giving birth were hidden from the Prince of the world...A star shone in heaven beyond all stars, and its light was unspeakable, and its newness caused astonishment, and all the other stars, with the sun and moon, gathered in CHORUS around this star, and it far exceed them all in its light, and there was perplexity whence came this new thing, so unlike them. BY THIS, ALL MAGIC WAS DISSOLVED (Ignatius Ephesians 19:1-3)."

Unlike Matthew, Ignatius' virgin birth tradition stresses the brightness of the Star and its central location in the night sky. Instead of Luke's angelic chorus, Ignatius' version has a figurative chorus in which the surrounding lesser lights symbolically celebrate the central Star. Astrology was a form of magic and magi were considered magicians. The frankincense and myrrh carried by the Matthean Magi were stock tools of the occult magician arts. Ignatius' tradition circumvents this problem by omitting the magi and any astrological interpretation of the Star in favor of the claim that this Star signified the demise of the legitimacy of all magic.
 
Jesus warns of false "signs and omens" cited by false prophets at the time of the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple (Mark 13:1-4, 22). Jesus envisages people like Josephus highlighting these omens preceding the Temple's destruction:

"Thus, it was that the wretched people were deluded at that time by charlatans and pretended messengers of the deity; WHILE THEY NEITHER HEEDED NOR BELIEVED IN THE MANIFEST PORTENTS THAT FORETOLD THE COMING DESOLATION, BUT, AS IF THUNDERSTRUCK AND BEREFT OF EYES AND MIND, DISREGARDED THE PLAIN WARNINGS OF GOD. So it was when A STAR RESEMBLING A SWORD, STOOD OVER THE CITY, AND A COMET WHICH CONTINUED OVER A YEAR (Josephus, War 6.5.4)."

But like Josephus, Jesus predicts falling stars (comets?) preceding the Temple's destruction (Mark 13:25). Josephus' description of "a star resembling a sword" seems a standard Roman description of comets. His description of the star "standing over" the city resembles Matthew's description of "the star" standing over Bethlehem. Matthew wrote a decade or 2 after the destruction of the Temple and may have been inspired by these attendant unusual astronomical displays to include the earlier tradition of the star standing over Bethlehem.

'
 
Mendalla said:
Weird. The URL does not seem to copy properly for some reason. This works, though: Article from ASOR
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Ah thanks, I know not everyone is interested, but I found it fascinating that the magi followed a "star"....it may be an explanation for why this was part of the narrative.
Astrology and Astronomy must have been part of early Christianity if they included it in the buried Dead Sea Scrolls I would think.
 
The Gnostics believed in levels of being or enlightenment that depended on access to secret knowledge. Paul seemed to be part of this circle in his reference to reaching the seventh heaven.
 
Is Gnostic knowledge as lower sense at the root of it all?

Thus gentile vs the Judean jewsid ... well juiced ...
 
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