Trinity Sunday

[GordW]

But we are talking about the trinity....so what stories contain the trinity?

GAlatians 4:6 is another place the beginnings of an understanding of the Trinity can be found. IN the end the doctrine, as I understand it, grew not out of a specific story or set of stories about GOd as Trinity but out of the CHristian understanding that JEsus was some how God in flesh and the experience of the Holy Spiriti in their midst and several decades of mental gymnastics (largely using non-Jewish philosophy) to explain how they were all God....

 

[Waterfall]

What Jim is suggesting, I think, is that none contain it in the direct form we understand but have been read that way and used to support it as a result of tradition as Christian theology developed. Like the baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19. It is not a statement of the doctrine of the Trinity, but the command to baptize in the name of ... has been read as being supportive of a Trinitarian deity in light of that later development.

In the end, no religion is based solely on what is written in its scriptures. How those writings are interpreted and implemented by its leaders and followers are just as important. If you want to understand religious doctrines, you need to look at the history of the tradition, not just the original scriptures.

So basically, a lie can form, and become doctrine through tradition formed by skimpy evidences in scripture?

 

[Redbaron]

It happens more often than one might think, yes.

 

[Luce NDs]

It happens more often than one might think, yes.

Given the age and tendency for human things to evolve ... why do people tend to take such things literally? Even stone layers creep ...

 

[paradox3]

Years ago, someone here introduced us to the Wesley Quadrilateral. (It might even have been on the original site.)

Scripture. Tradition. Reason. Experience.

I don't remember the details of the model but all four aspects of the quadrilateral were said to be important in our concept of God.

 

[Luce NDs]

Years ago, someone here introduced us to the Wesley Quadrilateral. (It might even have been on the original site.)

Scripture. Tradition. Reason. Experience.

I don't remember the details of the model but all four aspects of the quadrilateral were said to be important in our concept of God.

Like 4 Points of the Compass or even the Medicine Circle of 4 shades ... also pops up in Numbers 2 as 4 primary tribes Judah, Reuben, Ephraim and Dan ... depending on your traditions! Yet some do not give a tiny bit from where they are SET (settled)?

Then SET is an Egyptian deity ... de "-ite" in this case ... "-ite" is an old world meaning alloying! and other metaling and hammering ... meddling? It is amazing how some feel the authority to mess about with sacred concerns known only to a few ...

It can really get some folks started ...

Then the alternate meanings of the four range from power, unguent, essence and diabolical recovery from a down state!

Such is the rub of some satyr ... a bummer?

 

[Waterfall]

Years ago, someone here introduced us to the Wesley Quadrilateral. (It might even have been on the original site.)

Scripture. Tradition. Reason. Experience.

I don't remember the details of the model but all four aspects of the quadrilateral were said to be important in our concept of God.

It's interesting that we try to understand Gods nature so much, when much of it contains mystery that we will never understand.

 

[Luce NDs]

It's interesting that we try to understand Gods nature so much, when much of it contains mystery that we will never understand.

It is said the immortal mystery is extensive ... far beyond the mortal capabilities! Einstein used that to relate light with the two extremes ... as a means to generate a theory of relativity! That is way out there to some folk that choose to relate to nothing ... grandfather said that was like love when everything was lost ... thoughts departed?

 

[Mendalla]

So basically, a lie can form, and become doctrine through tradition formed by skimpy evidences in scripture?

Is it a lie? Or is it that understanding of God only starts with scripture; that lived experience (which is what tradition mostly is) matters, too? Scripture as starting point rather than be all and end all resolves a lot of problems. It gives room for growth rather than being a spiritual straitjacket.

 

[Waterfall]

Is it a lie? Or is it that understanding of God only starts with scripture; that lived experience (which is what tradition mostly is) matters, too? Scripture as starting point rather than be all and end all resolves a lot of problems. It gives room for growth rather than being a spiritual straitjacket.

Possibly, but it also gives room for evil to be done, and it has.

 

[Mendalla]

Possibly, but it also gives room for evil to be done, and it has.

And following scripture doesn't give room for evil to be done? Especially given that scripture is useless without interpretation. In the end, any human activity of any kinds gives room for evil to be done. Humans are not morally perfect beings and scripture was written and is interpreted by humans. So if there are humans involved, there is room for evil to be done and whether you are basing things on scripture or tradition does not change that.

My other question, though, would whether it even possible to have a Christianity that is purely based on scripture anymore? I would argue not. Scripture itself has already been shaped by the events and culture of its time (e.g. the references to Jerusalem's fate in the Gospels are almost certainly later interpolations by the writers since the events of 70 CE were still several decades away in Jesus' time). And every movement in Christianity since can be shown to have been as much a product of its time and culture as of scripture. And tradition is part of that cultural context.

 

[Luce NDs]

Another thing to consider would be atman ... an essence of something alien by some interpretations?

Atman; the spiritual life principle of the universe, especially when regarded as inherent in the real self of the individual.

Does the universe have principle? It seems so according to great laws controlling the go round, light, dark and other mysteries!

What would be at man? That'd be Ur the ancient lady for sure!

Few of these extenuating considerations are well interpreted by mortals ... who declare if such things whisper in your head ... as silence you're insane! Woe MU's ... imagine the things that can confuse you ... that's B Ur ... a thorn in the side!

This is a principle that operates in the dark and under cover ... like poly MS Understood!

The unseen one that we are indeterminate about ... to the point of being abstract and all in the psyche ... an imaginary domain! Does it project well to the hard-shell absolutes? Hard to accept ... as beyond us?

 

[Luce NDs]

I'm willing to discuss it but don't know much as it is a monstrous topic ... yet some say they are authorities on the entire thing as Nothing Integral ... Sum Zero?

Thus we say they haven't really gathered much about the thing whether material or immaterial! It can convert from out there to in yore head man ...

Authoritarian claims leave much open to be proven! Thus we say all is theory ... perhaps due to all that is out of our grip just now!

 

[revjohn]

This coming Sunday is Trinity Sunday. What might be an appropriate way to celebrate or mark it?

Observing it is not enough?

I see the Trinity as one of the steps Christians took in transitioning from a Jewish sect to a Greco Roman sect.

I see it as a distinction between both.

It isn't the monotheism of Judaiism and it is not the polytheism of Empires.

It could possibly appeal to both but that is going to be a difficult sale either way.

Apart from a decidedly Trinitarian structure to prayers (not unusual) I will be focusing on the John 16: 12-15 text. Particularly the Spirit's role in guiding into truth. This seems to be timely in an age of misinformation.

 

[revjohn]

Curious, Bart Ehrman, amongst other scholars say that the Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible .....other than 1 John 5:7.....and that was added later to the KJB in 1611.
What do ministers do with that information?

Not confident that is a correct representation of Ehrman.

Ehrman accepts the long reading of Matthew 28: 19 which includes an explicit Trinitarian reference.

Detractors of the Trinitarian formula in Matthew 28:19 frequently cite Eusebius
(who is known to abbreviate texts when citing them). Eusebius's body of work includes both the long and short readings of Matthew 28: 19 so reaching a definitive position through him is difficult.

Apart from Eusebius there are non-canonical citations of the long reading which predate the Council of Nicea. Tertullian has several.

Apart from 1 John 5: 7 and Matthew 28: 19 the Trinity is implied in the baptism of Jesus across all 4 Gospels, referenced 3 times in the Pauline writings and has one in 1 Peter.

So with all of that in mind I go from there.

 

[Luce NDs]

"age of misinformation." Can such a non thing be imagined or abstracted?

 

[revjohn]

So basically, a lie can form, and become doctrine through tradition formed by skimpy evidences in scripture?

Please identify the lie and your proof that it is a lie.

There have been bigger and more recent reads of scripture that make much hay from skimpy bits of text.

The Prayer of Jabez and the Rapture come to mind. Doubtful either will last as long as the Trinity have.

The doctrine of the Trinity represents that moment in doctrine where the persons of God as Parent, Son and Spirit can be stealth with separately but still need to be reconciled to the work of the God head.

 

[Luce NDs]

Not confident that is a correct representation of Ehrman.

Ehrman accepts the long reading of Matthew 28: 19 which includes an explicit Trinitarian reference.

Detractors of the Trinitarian formula in Matthew 28:19 frequently cite Eusebius
(who is known to abbreviate texts when citing them). Eusebius's body of work includes both the long and short readings of Matthew 28: 19 so reaching a definitive position through him is difficult.

Apart from Eusebius there are non-canonical citations of the long reading which predate the Council of Nicea. Tertullian has several.

Apart from 1 John 5: 7 and Matthew 28: 19 the Trinity is implied in the baptism of Jesus across all 4 Gospels, referenced 3 times in the Pauline writings and has one in 1 Peter.

So with all of that in mind I go from there.

Elaine Pagels had quite a bit to say about decisions made over some of these scriptures and how we have been preconditioned regarding any interpretation and how they could be of value to the people vs the authorities!

Here lies a large gap or void of interests regarding universal principles ripped apart ... as the duo goes their own way ... as in social versus antisocial ... when there was only Adam and Eve there was only the matter of conflict between the curse of light (dais) and the dark lady of night. The Dais may have been a shadowy man ... perhaps not Amon atoll ... isolated or autonomous?

Stuff that goes on in the Cosmological Principle ... as falls into the universal perspective ...

Much of this goes on in circles where perspective is closed so as to ignore the topic as an naïve objective ... like folk of virtue ... mostly unreal!

 

[Luce NDs]

Rev. John ... isn't the rapture another form of a RIP? Thus a gate in the great surroundings ... wrinkle?

Some may say these are gravid waves ...

 

[Waterfall]

Not confident that is a correct representation of Ehrman.

Ehrman accepts the long reading of Matthew 28: 19 which includes an explicit Trinitarian reference.

Detractors of the Trinitarian formula in Matthew 28:19 frequently cite Eusebius
(who is known to abbreviate texts when citing them). Eusebius's body of work includes both the long and short readings of Matthew 28: 19 so reaching a definitive position through him is difficult.

Apart from Eusebius there are non-canonical citations of the long reading which predate the Council of Nicea. Tertullian has several.

Apart from 1 John 5: 7 and Matthew 28: 19 the Trinity is implied in the baptism of Jesus across all 4 Gospels, referenced 3 times in the Pauline writings and has one in 1 Peter.

So with all of that in mind I go from there.

Where would I find the long reading of Mathew 28:19?