We just keep babbling on (Genesis 11:1-9)

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Mendalla

Happy headbanging ape!!
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Another week, another classic story.


Of course, this is the story of the Tower of Babel.

As a history of languages, it is total bunk. The evolution of language and the myriad languages we have today is very long and complex one that we do not even know the beginning of. It is not even 100% clear when speech as we understand it evolved in hominids, let alone the progenitors of modern languages. Many of the languages in common use today did not even exist until after the end of the Roman Empire (Spanish, French, Italian are all descended from Latin, English is descended from Anglo-Saxon with heavy French influences after the Norman Conquest) so even if this story was true, it is clear that it started the development of our myriad languages rather than being the cause of all of them.

So we know going in that this is mythology. What, then, is the myth about? What did it mean to those who decided to preserve it by writing it down? What does/can it mean for us today?
 
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I just realized as I read @unsafe's post in the thread below that I might have unconsciously thought of that thread when I picked this.


That thread talks about language how it can divide, which is also a theme in the Tower of Babel.
 
Interesting to think that language DOES divide us. Sometimes because we don't understand the language another is using. And sometimes because we do. Politicians, military types, even sometimes clergy types can use words deliberately to either unite and triumph, or divide and conquer. I may be just repeating what GeoFee wrote elsewhere, but it certainly bears on the meaning of this passage.
 
Is it a story about being prideful? The people thinking they can build a tower to the heavens? And perhaps influence God's will by performing an impressive feat?
 
Pride is definitely why they try to build the tower. And pride as a motivation brings down a lot of people in the Bible. Both Saul and David suffer from it as well. So, yeah, I think that's a key part of it.

Actually, is this story the origin of the old saw, "Pride goeth before a fall"?

What is interesting is God's reaction. Using language to divide them so they cannot work together on the project is a much stronger and longer lasting response than just using an earthquake to knock the building down or something.

One wonders if something happened millennia ago where a project fell apart because of communication or language issues and that somehow made its way down the line to "God stopped them from communicating".

I have certainly seen more than one project fly off the rails over language and communication issues. Not to mention pride, to bring this back around, on the part of those involved making them unwilling to compromise or take a different approach or give credit where credit is due.
 
I have often wondered if this story influenced the Pentecost story. In Acts when the tongues of fire descend, people begin speaking in different languages.

They are able to hear in their own languages, though.
 
I have often wondered if this story influenced the Pentecost story. In Acts when the tongues of fire descend, people begin speaking in different languages.

They are able to hear in their own languages, though.
It's almost like Pentecost is trying to undo Babel. Instead of everyone scattering because they cannot understand each other, they are united in understanding by the Spirit in spite of their different languages. Or something like that.
 
The tower was built as an expression of pride. That pride has led, is leading, and will lead to conflict and division.

We are many people, in many lands, and, expressing many languages. Still, there is but one life in us all.

So sad to see our human being diminished by pride.
 
I seem to recall my Jewish Scripture professor suggesting that the character of God seems a bit fearful or concerned in verse 6:
And the Lord said, “Look, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.

After all the premise of building the tower to the heavens could also be read as an attempt to claim territory.
 
There could be a sense of God feeling threatened by these human beings and needing to put them in their place.
 
"Now the whole earth had one language and the same words."

Interesting that humans might think they have a genetic memory of having arisen in one place.
 
This for me is not a myth but is factual and is History ------God's word reveals that Noah's descendants did not adhear to what God instructed them to do ---they were to fill the earth and prosper but instead they went eastward altogether so they disobeyed God and when you disobey God you are heading for disaster -----

So eastward is mentioned here ----has to have a spiritual meaning -------When Abraham was told to go alone to where God would send him --he disobeyed and took Lot with him ---Lot and Abraham had great disagreement and they quarrelled so Lot went out on his own eastward and got himself in a wack of trouble --Genesis 13 &14--he lost everything when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ---so eastward is sometimes used in the negative sense ---going away from God -------

God’s Covenant With Noah --Genesis 9 NIV​

9 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.

I say

So when they reached this plain in Babylon they went on a building spree ----defying God's orders to scatter ------Nimrod who was Noah's great Grandson was a builder as well as a great hunter -----So was Nimrod involved in the building of the tower ?????

In Chapter 10 we see Noah's descendants listed -----and it mentions Nimrod there -

Genesis 10:8-12 NIV​

8 Cush was the father[a] of Nimrod, who became a mighty warrior on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; that is why it is said, “Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the Lord.” 10 The first centers of his kingdom were Babylon, Uruk, Akkad and Kalneh, in[b] Shinar.[c] 11 From that land he went to Assyria, where he built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir,[d] Calah 12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and Calah—which is the great city.
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So we see why they built these places ---the scripture says they wanted to make a name for themselves ---so definitely Pride was their motive but it would also show their power and might and it would also show their defiance in giving into what God wanted them to do which was to scatter -as seen in verse 3

3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”


Strong's says this about a tower -----Hebrew word


gadal: to grow up, become great

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
advance, boast, bring up, exceed, excellent, become, do, give,

A primitive root; properly, to twist (compare gdil), i.e. To be (causatively make) large (in various senses, as in body, mind, estate or honor, also in pride) -- advance, boast, bring up, exceed, excellent, be(-come, do, give, make, wax), great(-er, come to...estate, + things), grow(up),increase, lift up, magnify(-ifical), be much set by, nourish (up), pass, promote, proudly (spoken), tower.


I say my view here ------So by this tower reaching the heavens they would be exalting themselves to be like gods ------
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So do we see that this would make God very angry to be watching this happen knowing what is in their hearts for their motive in building this structure ------

They all went to this place together ---and they all spoke the same language ----so they were all united by language and design -----they were all one in unison -----

Now -----God said this ------Let US go down and confuse them -------this is important as we see that the tribune actually appear to these people -------who were full of self worship --lust --greed and power and God in the Old Testament dealt directly with His Sinful people -----and rightly so --

Genesis 11:7 AMP​

7 Come, let Us (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) go down and there confuse and mix up their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.”

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I say ------So here God is going to cause Division and Confusion among them ------so their unity is cut off -------they brought this upon themselves for disobeying and mocking God -------

So we see in verse 6 that God says this

6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.

I say ----- We see here that Satan was getting the upper hand with God's people and he was hardening their hearts against Him and if God did not intervene things could get very bad for His chosen race as Satan had God's OK to tempt His people and keep them from Him ------ an Evil seed was taking fast hold of His Chosen ------


The Hebrew word Babel means confusion ----

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
Babel, Babylon
From balal; confusion; Babel (i.e. Babylon), including Babylonia and the Babylonian empire -- Babel, Babylon

So verses 8-9 tells us that God in the end scattered His chosen over the earth and their building stopped --as they were no longer united in language ----the Tower for God was a symbol of rebellion I believe -----

The way of the transgressor is a hard road ------Proverbs 13 is a great piece of scripture about this --
just posting verse 15 AKJV

Good understanding giveth favour:
but the way of transgressors is hard.

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Interesting video here ------3 min 36 sec long ---to believe or not believe ????????


Smithsonian Channel

Biblical scholars have long debated whether the Tower of Babel really existed. Now, a remarkable stone tablet never before shown on film appears to settle that question.​

Some Very Compelling Evidence the Tower of Babel Was Real


 
I find it interesting that, no matter how loud the cry for unity, those who create artificial languages like Volapuk, and Esperanto, intended to hep foster that unity, have often been persecuted and insulted. Seems the human race doesn't really want to speak all one language that badly....
 
Yet in this story the people get up to no good when they have one common language. They become prideful and even seem to pose a threat to God.

God wants them scattered throughout the earth. I wonder why? To do God's will? To follow the commandment to go forth and multiply?

At any rate, it doesn't seem like God has any problem with diversity. Maybe an important takeaway from this tale.
 
I find it interesting that, no matter how loud the cry for unity, those who create artificial languages like Volapuk, and Esperanto, intended to hep foster that unity, have often been persecuted and insulted. Seems the human race doesn't really want to speak all one language that badly....
I don't think you can artificially create a language anyhow. Languages evolve as societies do. Look at English. A Saxon from 1000CE would have a hard time even recognizing what we speak as related to their language. People create new words, pronounce words differently, mess with grammar, all of which make their way into the language. I mean, you know those differences between UK English and US English? That's because English evolved differently in the US after the Revolution. That's only 250 years or so. Unless you start legally enforcing spelling and grammar, language is going to evolve because that's how language works and has always worked.

Esperanto, for instance, didn't fail because of persecution. Hell, my school library had a book on learning it. It failed because no one was born and raised in an environment speaking it and it was too different from any language in everyday use to catch on. And even had it caught on, I'll bet that after a century or two, it would look different from what was created originally.

"Now the whole earth had one language and the same words."

Interesting that humans might think they have a genetic memory of having arisen in one place.
I have my doubts that there was ever a common language. I am betting that early human communication was fairly rudimentary and that differences started to appear as soon as people went in different direction. The people who went North into Europe developed language very differently from those who went East, and so on. The "common language" disappeared fairly early, in other words, if it ever existed at all.
 
The Bible is presented as a history of the interaction between God and the people of God. Apart from that, it is not designed to be a compendium of all possible knowledge.

Babel brings some backstory to that interaction since the people of God are not formalized until Abram and Sarah enter into the cast of characters.

Whether the backstory is 100% factual or not misses the point. The point should be what is the scripture saying that we should be listening to? We don't always engage scripture expecting to hear something from it. Sometimes we engage it just long enough to twist it to say what we want it to say.

Following the narrative that the Flood reduced the genetic pool to 4 male siblings and their spouses, it would not be ridiculous to imagine a world in which all people spoke but one language. Why then do we have different languages? The tower story provides an answer? Is it entirely satisfactory? Not for us now for the audience it was written for it worked.

History and Creation itself are not mute witnesses of God's interaction with the people of God and they can flesh out with dimension what Scripture renders flatly. The whole progression of how Babylon came to be is somewhat missing from the narrative save for the broadest of possible strokes.

At any rate, the narrative has folk spreading east from Ararat, finding a place that is suitable for building a city and in that city a tower. Like overnight or over decades? Rome was not built in a day, we accept that why not give Babylon a gestational period longer than overnight?

The top of the tower was in the heavens. Which heavens? According to the scriptures, the heavens are layered. Are the heavens roughly comparable to the troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere, thermosphere, or ecosphere? I have no idea and am not aware of any scholarly attempt to make such connections. My point being that my head exists in the troposphere heavenly enough or not? How high does a building have to be before it qualifies as touching the heavens? I raise my hand and touch the sky. My grandson does the same though my reach is higher than his. Having just wandered over from a discussion about how tall a giant was/is why are we getting hung up on size again?

A tower that reaches the heavens would just be tall or are we falling into a restrictive literalism rather than an informative literary? I ask because there is no actual measurement accompanying the text which tells us exactly how tall the tower is alleged to be. Would it qualify as a modern-day sky-scraper (minimum 100 meters in height) or not? No, at 30 meters it falls short. The Great Pyramid of Giza qualifies. Maybe we simply don't comprehend how Heaven is being used in the narrative. They didn't get to finish the building project at any rate.

God comes down. I suspect this is where we are supposed to be focussing our attention. More on what God is about than whether or not the tower was going to make it to the heavens.

Why? If the tower reached the heavens wouldn't it be on his proverbial doorstep? Just open a window no need to come all the way down.

Remembering that God forbade Adam and Eve from partaking from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil does it seem out of character for God to apply limits to anyone or anything?

Nothing they propose to do will be impossible to them.

This is not high praise from God, at least I don't read it as such. I do read genuine concern about what humanity might get up to with no limits laid upon them. The 20th century alone suggests that maybe humanity performs best restrained in some manner.

So, God imposes obstacles to progress. Thorns were an upgrade too weren't they (according to the narrative).

From there Babel goes on to become Babylon and that is a historical trouble spot for the people of God which is to be expected since God saw that they were up to no good and shook them up a bit.

This leaves us with the knowledge that over east in Babel/Babylon trouble brews so watch yourself. Reassuringly God also keeps a weather eye on Bable/Babylon and keeps them in check.

And then Babylon is a non-entity until Israel and Judah provoke God to rebuke them.

And it goes back to being a non-entity until the book of Revelation.

Babel/Babylon is something of a Bogeyman. Nothing but trouble. Always has been started with the tower nonsense and went from there.

Is there redemption for Babel/Babylon ever?

Well, there is this this one guy who came up out of Ur who made good so there is that.
 
@Mendalla
The evolution of language is a fascinating thing. Even in my lifetime there have been many changes. A couple of things come to mind.

The influence of American spelling.

Ever changing slang terminology and usage.

The acceptance of they /them as a singular pronoun

Other proposed changes to pronouns.

A tendency to turn nouns into verbs. In the US reading someone their Miranda rights has become Miranda-izing them, for example.

The evolution of brand names into generic nouns. Kleenex, thermos and the like.

And more.
 
paradox3 ----you said ----God wants them scattered throughout the earth. I wonder why? To do God's will? To follow the commandment to go forth and multiply?

I think your last statement applies in my view ----God created humankind in His image and He wanted the whole earth filled with reflectors of Him ------humans reflect His Glory so that way no one could miss the point of creation -----God created human kind to know Him --Love Him and to show Him -----these folks were putting a damper on His plan so He acted ------disobeying God's will has consequences ----especially in the Old Testament as there was not Mediator to do the bidding for human kind as there is today who is Jesus --God dealt directly with people in their disobedience ---

parodox3 ---you said -----it doesn't seem like God has any problem with diversity.

I say ---I agree with this statement ------God created diversity --He created 2 different genders ---different plants --animals etc ----so that tells us that God doesn't have a problem with diversity -and He delights in seeing the differences in His Creation -

My View
God also created unity ---so even though God created diversity ---we need to understand that even though there are different cultures --languages ----colour --sexes etc here in this physical world -----Spiritually we were all created by one God who wants us to become one unit under Him ---so while there is physical diversity ---Spiritually we are united ----

I think in today's world ---diversity is in the forefront --so personally I think that we need to be careful to make sure we don't allow diversity to be a god in our lives -----we should keep our focus on the One who created diversity ------
 
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