The Church Vs. The State Civil Disobedience

[Ritafee]

EXACTLY

In the most recent influenza pandemic that did not involve the use of antibiotics to suppress bacteria (the 1918–1919 pandemic), histological and bacteriologic evidence suggests that the vast majority of influenza deaths resulted from secondary bacterial pneumonia.

In conclusion ...
If the next pandemic is caused by a human-adapted virus similar to those recognized since 1918, we believe the infection is likely to behave as it has in past pandemics, precipitating severe disease associated with prevalent colonizing bacteria. Recent reviews have discussed the importance of new and improved influenza antiviral drugs and influenza vaccines in controlling a pandemic [84, 91, 92]. The present work leads us to conclude that in addition to these critical efforts, prevention, diagnosis, prophylaxis, and treatment of bacterial pneumonia, as well as the stockpiling of antibiotics and bacterial vaccines [84, 85, 93], should be among the highest priorities in pandemic planning. We are encouraged that such considerations are already being discussed and implemented by the agencies and individuals responsible for such plans [94, 95]

Funny enough, the three big tools in the pandemic tool kit are EXACTLY the same as they were in 1917-18. Social distancing, masking, hand-washing.

So why the lockdowns?

 

[Northwind]

So why the lockdowns?

It's called social distancing. And, most of us were not fully locked down in Canada. Calling it a "lockdown" is hyperbole.

 

[GeoFee]

It may be called social distancing. This does not diminish the fact that we are in a lockdown. Violation can bring strong repercussion, as we are noticing.

 

[Northwind]

It may be called social distancing. This does not diminish the fact that we are in a lockdown. Violation can bring strong repercussion, as we are noticing.

How is it a lockdown? Isn't a lockdown a full imprisonment essentially, where you can't go anywhere except during prescribed times? What repercussions are you noticing?

 

[Luce NDs]

Is social distancing like isolationism and autonomous existence? Thus ghosts and shadows in arid places like deserts and other open countries?

Is Canada closed or open hearted, minded or physically difficult? Some declare we should be simple ...

 

[Mendalla]

It may be called social distancing. This does not diminish the fact that we are in a lockdown. Violation can bring strong repercussion, as we are noticing.

I can leave my house any time I like, there are just restrictions on where I can go and sometimes, depending on where I go, I might need to mask and observe 2m spacing. And that has never changed. There was a "stay at home" in Ontario but it was mostly a recommendation and worked primarily by limiting where you could actually go (e.g. by closing all stores and recreational facilities). But if I took a walk in my neighbourhood by myself, no repercussions. And I don't recall that Manitoba was any stricter on that front than Ontario. That's hardly a lockdown compared to, say, France where they literally checked how far you were from your own property at one point.

 

[GeoFee]

So Covid has brought in a various scale of lockdowns; some serious and others minor. This depending on the position of the various states and their peoples. Some are more into control. It is that movement to control that I wonder about. Can it be that what we are now experiencing will lead us further along the way of authoritarianism?

 

[GeoFee]

How is it a lockdown? Isn't a lockdown a full imprisonment essentially, where you can't go anywhere except during prescribed times? What repercussions are you noticing?

Persons and groups being fined or imprisoned for violation of "lockdown" parameters? I will not insist on the word lockdown, but do feel it is worth evaluating our historic moment and looking for a new direction in which to move forward into wellness. This will not happen while our Governments favor capitalist economies over people. These prefer the pursuit of power and profit for the few over the well being of all. This is an historic pattern clearly evident for all who dig deep into the meaning and purpose of human being in creation.

 

[Northwind]

So Covid has brought in a various scale of lockdowns; some serious and others minor. This depending on the position of the various states and their peoples. Some are more into control. It is that movement to control that I wonder about. Can it be that what we are now experiencing will lead us further along the way of authoritarianism?

Please spell out the lockdowns. Where are they being used for control.

 

[Northwind]

Persons and groups being fined or imprisoned for violation of "lockdown"

Which persons and groups?

 

[BetteTheRed]

Persons and groups being fined or imprisoned for violation of "lockdown" parameters?

In Canada, not so much.

Even in this thread, the person wasn't fined or imprisoned for violating "lockdown" parameters. It was because he insisted it was safe for an entire congregation to worship each week - WITHOUT masks, without social distancing (which means capacity limits; in our sanctuary, it is 60). That's NOT lockdown; those are temporary preventive public health measures, such as were employed during the 17-18 pandemic. I have lived in a hotspot in Ontario during the entire pandemic. Not once has anyone asked me (as long as I was masked) if I had the right to be out and about. I think the only curfews imposed were in Quebec, and they're normally the most "human-rights-y" of provinces.

 

[BetteTheRed]

And even the masked part, only inside. I take the dog for a long walk or two every day. No mask, there's a bit of ballet dancing around passing on the sidewalk, but I don't walk busy places. Even saw an old friend/childhood acquaintance of mine today while walking and we had a nice distanced yack, maskless. You don't have to shout at 6', and 7' keeps the dog from jumping all over him, lol...

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I don't follow the crowd as a general rule ... I try to discern from a variety of sources available ... you yourself should understand this in your pursuit of the truth around MAID. It does not come from the MSM ... you are adament that there is an agenda in play ... and you are right as far as I can discern. I do not self censor who I can or cannot take information from ... research is research after all ... it is not bias confirmation. If I had my druthers I would like it to be all truth and light ... unfortunately ignoring the lies and darkness ... does not make them go away. I search for it in hopes of bringing it to the light ... if one refuses to look at what we are dealing with ... as in the full picture of MAID that you are so prone to bringing into exposure ... how is that received by the 'crowd' that does not want to look at it in all of it's context? Why keep digging up more and more evidence that you are 'right'?

I was never being informed by the right wing media. I was concerned as a person with a disability immediately - and so were all the disability organizations across Canada. I already understood the UN CRPD. I know someone who was a delegate to NY when that was created - herself, a disabled person. If I ever quoted right wing fringe media and not the MSM it was because the public was sold by some snakey politicians and an international lobby group with hot shot lawyers, that MAiD wasn't a dangerous slippery slope - and the MSM wouldn't touch it. But I don't think I did that. If I did it wasn't wise. At worst I posted some articles from Catholic run small news sites. I posted mostly MSM articles expressing our position if it ever got any press. Mostly I used my own voice and information from allied national disability organizations organizations, and the UN. I was careful about where I was posting info from. Because it is not a partisan issue. I never thought it was and I was not going to use random sources with bad reputations to back me up. That would make what I have to say less credible, and nobody whose voices we need helping us would listen - ever at any point - except sources who I think harm rather than help us get the message to more people. More coverage in the MSM is a welcome change. It might never have happened if the UN didn't step in. And still, the bill was passed anyway.

Also, I recommend you read commentary from as many people as you can who have lost people to covid. Read about and hear people in the big cities. Side first with the people who are vulnerable and those who've lost people to covid. Always determine with honesty who the most vulnerable voices are in the debate, first. Chase down credible information to back them up.

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

Another key point in my development was my Friesian birth. The national motto of the Friesian people is "Freedom is the highest law." This concept is deeply rooted in my being. From adolescence I have refused conformity to the patterns of power. This got me kicked out of school before I was fifteen.

Something I've come to appreciate - our early life influences greatly. I'd like you to consider and reflect on what I perceive is a certain rigidity in your views. Do you ever consider that there are times when "refusing conformity to the patterns of power" can be a knee-jerk reaction that doesn't fit a particular situation?

I am well aware that following Jesus in spirit and truth will lead to rejection by the powers governing the earth in service to profit and power.

I wholeheartedly agree with this sentence.

Rita and I are not unkind persons.

I don't think you are unkind.
What I do think is that because of your opposition to authority figures you tend to see things as right or wrong -and don't allow for more nuanced thinking. The problem with this is that folks don't take your views as seriously as you would like them to.
In my own case I see both my parents - like me - as flawed but loving people.. I believe this has helped me to see most folks as flawed -capable of both good and evil.
And yes, this means that I, like them, can make mistakes and can be in the wrong. I have been, and I will continue to do so.

 

[GeoFee]

Which persons and groups?

Sorry to say my mind is not comfortable with facts. It’s preference is metaphor. I will give up the use of “lockdown” going forward.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I was never being informed by the right wing media. I was concerned as a person with a disability immediately - and so were all the disability organizations across Canada. I already understood the UN CRPD. I know someone who was a delegate to NY when that was created - herself, a disabled person. If I ever quoted right wing fringe media and not the MSM it was because the public was sold by some snakey politicians and an international lobby group with hot shot lawyers, that MAiD wasn't a dangerous slippery slope - and the MSM wouldn't touch it. But I don't think I did that. If I did it wasn't wise. At worst I posted some articles from Catholic run small news sites. I posted mostly MSM articles expressing our position if it ever got any press. Mostly I used my own voice and information from allied national disability organizations organizations, and the UN. I was careful about where I was posting info from. Because it is not a partisan issue. I never thought it was and I was not going to use random sources with bad reputations to back me up. That would make what I have to say less credible, and nobody whose voices we need helping us would listen - ever at any point - except sources who I think harm rather than help us get the message to more people. More coverage in the MSM is a welcome change. It might never have happened if the UN didn't step in. And still, the bill was passed anyway.

Also, I recommend you read commentary from as many people as you can who have lost people to covid. Read about and hear people in the big cities. Side first with the people who are vulnerable and those who've lost people to covid. Always determine with honesty who the most vulnerable voices are in the debate, first. Chase down credible information to back them up.

When I posted from Catholic news because nobody else would report it - that was not a good idea here.

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

History has shown that the best way to handle health pandemics is with social distancing, hand hygiene and mask wearing.

But, what if this isn't enough, due to poor compliance or inability?

Do you just let folks die - or do you admit that it's not working well, and introduce more stringent methods?
Unlike George and Rita, I think there are times when those in authority make the right decision.

Yes, we have had lockdowns in Australia. But, we weren't in a prison, the limitations were both understandable and doable.
The result? Our comparatively low death rate speaks for itself - and I, for one, am proud of both our state and federal authorities who worked for the common good of all Aussies. They had the courage to stand up to the freedom bleaters, who, imo, were acting like adolescents not allowed out on a Saturday night.

Do I think that our governments always get it right?
Certainly not.
Our treatment of asylum seekers and refugees is nothing short of deplorable.

 

[Ritafee]

Always determine with honesty who the most vulnerable voices are in the debate, first. Chase down credible information to back them up.

That is excellent advice. So when I am looking for vulnerable voices in the debate around vaccine injury for instance ... should I be listening to the WHO ... the CDC ... The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation ... Vaccine producers that are not liable for damages or the people that are dealing with vaccine injuries and their credible advocates.?

 

[Northwind]

Sorry to say my mind is not comfortable with facts. It’s preference is metaphor. I will give up the use of “lockdown” going forward.

Metaphor is lovely when used well. It's harmful when used for hyperbolic purposes. You mentioned issues with control and authoritarian purposes. You also mentioned concern about lockdowns. Those statements need to be backed up with facts and examples, otherwise they serve no useful purpose.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

That is excellent advice. So when I am looking for vulnerable voices in the debate around vaccine injury for instance ... should I be listening to the WHO ... the CDC ... The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation ... Vaccine producers that are not liable for damages or the people that are dealing with vaccine injuries and their credible advocates.?

Listen to those who are vulnerable to the disease. They do not have the same fears as you do about the WHO and Gates etc. They want the vaccine. Don't assume you know better than they do.