Heaven and Hell, by Bart Ehrman

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Mendalla said:
the Bible is going to be regarded and discussed as a human document by human hands reflecting human experience. It is the core source for much of the discussion not because it is "God's Word/Truth" but because it is where we find much of the beliefs being discussed.
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For all intents and purposes, the word “Hell” isn’t even in the Bible.
 
Ritafee said:
For all intents and purposes, the word “Hell” isn’t even in the Bible.
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Which is part of the point of the book we are discussing. It is about looking at how the ideas developed in Christianity, given that they are not found in Jesus's teaching. If you plan to continue posting here, I do suggest you read the book or at least watch the videos of Ehrman I posted so you know what we are talking about.
 
Mendalla said:
If you plan to continue posting here, I do suggest you read the book or at least watch the videos of Ehrman I posted so you know what we are talking about.
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Heaven and Hell in a Nutshell: Getting into the Kernel​

December 16, 2019

Here is the second and last part of my summary of the heart of my forthcoming book Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife. It’s not an outline of the chapters, but a summing up of the key issues, flow, and the ultimate “point” of the book. As a tip, I’ve called this little essay (in my own mind): “There Is Nothing To Fear.”

ehrmanblog.org

Heaven and Hell in a Nutshell: Getting into the Kernel | The Bart Ehrman Blog

Here is the second and last part of my summary of the heart of my forthcoming book Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife. It's not an outline of the chapters, but a summing up of the key issues, flow, and the ultimate "point" of the book. As a tip,…
ehrmanblog.org ehrmanblog.org
 
Ritafee said:

Heaven and Hell in a Nutshell: Getting into the Kernel​

December 16, 2019

Here is the second and last part of my summary of the heart of my forthcoming book Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife. It’s not an outline of the chapters, but a summing up of the key issues, flow, and the ultimate “point” of the book. As a tip, I’ve called this little essay (in my own mind): “There Is Nothing To Fear.”

ehrmanblog.org

Heaven and Hell in a Nutshell: Getting into the Kernel | The Bart Ehrman Blog

Here is the second and last part of my summary of the heart of my forthcoming book Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife. It's not an outline of the chapters, but a summing up of the key issues, flow, and the ultimate "point" of the book. As a tip,…
ehrmanblog.org ehrmanblog.org
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Yes, and we will discuss the whole question of fear of death more as we move along. This is, however, a study/discussion of the book, not just a discussion of the ideas. If that is all I wanted, I would have left this in R&F. And you are quite welcome to post in the thread there if we are boring you by doing an indepth study. If you plan to remain here, then be prepared to go into this more deeply, preferably by reading the book.
 
Ritafee said:
For all intents and purposes, the word “Hell” isn’t even in the Bible.
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Well, that's sort of a "duh", given that the original languages weren't English, and Hell is an English word... There's words that suggest a place where people/souls go when they die.
 
In the Preface, Ehrman writes about the negative reaction he got from some people about the idea of writing this as a "history" of Heaven and Hell. He was, of course, referring to a history of the ideas people have held about them, not a literal history of them as real places. It is then, a history of human ideas about the afterlife. What do you think? Can we separate Heaven and Hell as human ideas from them as a literal reality? Are they products of human imagination and culture or do they reflect something real?
 
When you are thoroughly convinced that your eternal destiny rests on what you believe, the ideas can be hard to separate from what you believe the reality is. Once it becomes clear, however, that the Hebrew scriptures and the later Christian scriptures describe the 'world to come' in strikingly different ways, after you get over the initial shock of new information, it does become possible to do so. At least I found it to be so on my journey.
 
Mendalla said:
What do you think? Can we separate Heaven and Hell as human ideas from them as a literal reality? Are they products of human imagination and culture or do they reflect something real?
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Much like the idea of God, I think they reflect something real but not fully understandable.

I have been thinking a lot lately about whether or not religious faith is a decision we make. I am leaning towards yes.

My father's definition of agnosticism was believing in God but knowing that God's nature could not be fully understood. Having recently lost him, I have been pondering how much his agnosticism influenced me. He called it atheism but I digress :)
 
Redbaron said:
When you are thoroughly convinced that your eternal destiny rests on what you believe
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I have never ever accepted that the final judgment (if there is such a thing) would turn on whether or not we believed the right things. How could God be so petty???
 
paradox3 said:
My father's definition of agnosticism was believing in God but knowing that God's nature could not be fully understood. Having recently lost him, I have been pondering how much his agnosticism influenced me. He called it atheism but I digress :)
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It is absolutely totally ironic to me that one of the true underpinnings of my "faith", whatever you want to call this constant Godde-seeking, was engendered by a vision given me by my Dad, who was a real "hard" atheist. (That saying about no atheists in foxholes is total crap in my experience; he told me that his faith/belief in God was forever shredded by his experiences in WW2.)
 
paradox3 said:
I have never ever accepted that the final judgment (if there is such a thing) would turn on whether or not we believed the right things. How could God be so petty???
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Well, as it turns out, it isn't likely God who is petty...
 
BetteTheRed said:
(That saying about no atheists in foxholes is total crap in my experience; he told me that his faith/belief in God was forever shredded by his experiences in WW2.)
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My father had a similar reaction to tragedy in his life. Although I don't think he was ever a believer in the first place.

My grandfather defined as an agnostic. I think we still have The Complete Works of Robert Ingersoll around here some place.
 
paradox3 said:
My father's definition of agnosticism was believing in God but knowing that God's nature could not be fully understood
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Interesting. That's where I started, too. Later discovered the philosophical definition (statements about God, the afterlife, etc. are matters of faith/belief and not provable) and have rolled with that ever since.
 
As I read through the early chapters (I have not reached the end yet myself since I skipped back to start doing more in depth reading of the early chapters to prepare), there's no mention of Purgatory. I wonder if that came in too late for Ehrman's work or if it gets touched late in the book. It's an interesting concept in that it basically provides a "grey zone". The really, truly good (like saints) go straight to Heaven, the bad eggs go to Hell, but then there's this place where those of us who are basically good but not perfect get "purged" before being released into St. Peter's tender care. It makes the whole thing a bit less "black and white" by suggesting that perfection isn't needed, just not wallowing in sin.

(That's leaving aside, of course, the whole selling of indulgences business that helped trigger the Reformation. Though that raises the question of whether any Protestants believe(d) in Purgatory, or did that get dumped completely? Calvin and others focussed on salvation by Grace alone would not have believed in it but I wonder about other sects?)
 
I have always associated purgatory with Catholicism but it would be interesting to know if the concept has a wider history.

Are there different ways of understanding purgatory within the Catholic faith?

is it always considered to represent punishment? Or could it mean reflection and remorse?
 
paradox3 said:
I have always associated purgatory with Catholicism but it would be interesting to know if the concept has a wider history.
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Me, too, but I've never been clear on when it crept into the faith. Certainly, the examples Ehrman gives in Chapter 1 (which I will probably open up for discussion soon) only talk about heaven and hell but they all predate Constantine so maybe it showed up after he legalized and "Romanized" Christianity.
 
Does Ehrman unpack the concepts of Sheol and Gehenna later in the book? Both are often loosely translated as Hell which is not, strictly speaking, correct AFAIK.

But it seems to me both concepts could be relevant to the author's thesis.
 
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