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I am half stuck on the front lines, and also weeping from the back.

I had to go for an ultrasound last week, and the last question was "have you been exposed to COVID-19?" My honest answer: who the f*** knows? I work in a grocery store.

And I get daily calls from an old guy, in a stroke unit, with COVID, who can't have a visit.
 
Pinga said:
I am curious.

I've had an ongoing dialogue with a friend who is Canadian; however, hails and has family in various Asian countries, and Australia.

he was advocating for a complete lockdown early on. Shut it down. Shut business down. Keep it down. Don't let any planes in without mandatory quarantine, and so on.

i said, Canadians would not stand for it. There are limits to what we will do or accept. Plus, we have the US border, and the Amazon purchases that flow across that border. At the time when he wanted it, shucks, most people couldn't spell the virus, let alone accept a full shutdown.

Since then, he has had nothing but criticism, and blames the government for every death that has occurred.

I get some of that, but, I also know there are folks who truly do not believe that we should even have to wear masks. Churches that won't practice the 10 person limit. Restaurants that open up despite.

What do you think?

I read @Lastpointe 's post, and see a bit of the same.

Yet, I also read Rita's posts and know that there are huge extremes.

What say you?
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I think mistakes have been made for sure. I still don't agree with large scale full lockdowns - covid isn't serious enough to outweigh the harms of such lockdowns. I think we could have done more with the borders earlier. We were so strict with the cruises and then lax in other regards. I think ankle monitoring is something that could have been considered more seriously at least along with hotels being used to isolate. Even if the hotels were voluntary if they were pushed more and normalized as people arrived it could have been fairly successful. Being next to the US I don't think we could have had extremely low case numbers without other major issues but we could have had much better control.
 
Have you heard the complaints regarding being forced to go into a quarantine hotel?

An ankle bracelet -- there is little probability that you would have got them on people.
Canadians have a certain expectation.

Plus, our problem has been primarily with long term care centres. Travellers have been relatively contorlled with the level of shutdown done.
Now, there is a variant that has a faster spread, and so travel restrictions are coming in faster and harder.

With the previous one, the loss of personal rights were not warranted .

Ditto with the shutting down of businesses, and keeping in touch with folks.
the rate was manageable, other than the frickin' ltc and some clusters in work places with close proximity.
 
BetteTheRed said:
I am half stuck on the front lines, and also weeping from the back.

I had to go for an ultrasound last week, and the last question was "have you been exposed to COVID-19?" My honest answer: who the f*** knows? I work in a grocery store.

And I get daily calls from an old guy, in a stroke unit, with COVID, who can't have a visit.
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Sorry, Bette.
 
Rauch folks demanding power state ... do nt compromise ... fight until the entire thing collapsed ... give Phoenix half a chance from the middle of the rubble ... thus the ruckus!

That central flame, Dan tends to it ... but given the hate for the fire confinement ... anything can happen in a love-hate relationship ... thus far off intelligence ... one should gather!
 
A population of 900 000 is easier handled that a couple of millions. I am not sure how Australia did it, but Atlantic Canada did it so far. My impression is that the majority of residents in NS are behind it, which is another factor.
I think that non essential travel should have been mandatory quarantined in all provinces long ago. It keeps people home. I heard many coworkers wanting to travel in the summer, than, thankfully, came the Atlantic bubble. But they were prepared to stay home. The movement is what spreads it, so the only way is to reduce the movement.
 
Mrs.Anteater said:
A population of 900 000 is easier handled that a couple of millions. I am not sure how Australia did it, but Atlantic Canada did it so far. My impression is that the majority of residents in NS are behind it, which is another factor.
I think that non essential travel should have been mandatory quarantined in all provinces long ago. It keeps people home. I heard many coworkers wanting to travel in the summer, than, thankfully, came the Atlantic bubble. But they were prepared to stay home. The movement is what spreads it, so the only way is to reduce the movement.
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Be still my soul ... thus those things in the ground of being ...
 
I think Trudeau made lots of mistakes @Pinga. And he has to wear it. He won’t but that is voters being idiots

i don’t think Canada could have done theAustralian thing. We have too many ways to get here through the USA. And we had to allow truckers or we would have long starved. Australia has to get all their supplies either by air or by cargo ship. Two much easier to control entries. Same with new zealand

but we didn’t do enough. As we saw the elderly wiped out in Italy early on, that was the time for Trudeau, his inept health minister and all the provinces to get a plan to protect the elderly. The hotels were empty. Take them over, divide up the patients so one per room. Hire staff or get the military in. That was the time for action

but Trudeau was, just like Trump, closing his eyes. Remember when they said closing borders wouldn’t help? Or masks were tricky to wear? ........

we have passed 20,000 deaths. Primarily elderly. They allowed that.

now They are worried about travel. Too little too late. quarantine hotels isn’t a new idea. It has been happening all year in countries being more protective of borders

but none of that will protect the elderly
 
Lastpointe

Long term care is the jurisdiction of the provinces, not the federal party. Henry did a better job than Ford did.

Closing the borders would not have helped significantly in the earlier time frame. Our society would not have accepted at that time, nor can we fully close the border without huge impact The issue was NOT travel coming in. The virus was already here.
The challenge now is the new variant. If it is community spread then we are screwed and closing borders won't help.
If it isn't community spread, then, closing border is worth the challenge.

Masks rules and understanding have changed. Asian countries have accepted the usage of masks for at least a decade. Shucks, I've been on flights with people wearing masks for years. With the new variant, the latest is wear different masks. It is more contagious. I happen to have worn two masks to go into a store recently. I wouldn't have done that in the early days -- scientists weren't suggest it.

Again, I get you hate Trudeau, but, let's discuss the issues.

ps. variants occur everywhere. Some countries test for variants. In Ontario, our testing does not catch variants as quickly as do other locations testing methods, such as Brazil and UK. The presumption is that the variant started elsewhere and came here. If you watch the wording, news rooms are starting to correct their language regarding variants.
 
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I don’t hate trudeau. I think he is a good looking, not terribly bright charismatic person

yes LTC is provincial. That is why I said he had the opportunity, back in January when this was starting, to get together with the provinces, to make plans. He didn’t. That was the time to act

Closing borders or at least international flights in January would have helped. Our cases came from China, first case, and Italy and NYC at first. But at the time, I agree that it would have seemed an extreme move. However, co7ntries that did it, stopped the massive influx

hind sight is 20/20. I get that. At the time though, he was reluctant, as the head of government , to take action. It has cost us dearly

he has handed out money. He has been sincerely concerned. He has not kept the country safe and that is his job
 
It is interesting that many of the countries faring best are those that habitually wear masks if they have a cold or a bug. Their acceptance of mask wearing was quicker. (note: or wear face garb,)
It is also interesting that the number of flu cases has dropped significantly in Canada this year.

Will be interesting to see if we shift our norms out of this one, and start to wear masks regularly. News rooms are also picking up on some of the stories, like changes to design, and questions regarding long-term mask wearing. It's a market that wasn't here before.
 
Pinga said:
Long term care is the jurisdiction of the provinces, not the federal party. Henry did a better job than Ford did.
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This statement reveals a big difference. Ontario's plan was run by a politician while a physician with a strong background in public health lead in BC. Horgan has largely stepped back and has deferred to Dr Henry and Adrian Dix. Horgan has stepped in where it is appropriate. He is not silent.

I'm thankful for the way this has been handled in BC. Most of the measures have made sense.

I like the idea that @Lastpointe presented about dealing with care homes. Yes it is a provincial responsibility. Still, the federal government could play a part in the solution. While BC has made some good changes that help, they are still bandaid responses that don't solve the problem overall. Something needs to be done about the for profit aspect of running the homes. A profit in itself isn't horrible. Doing it on the backs of vulnerable people is.
 
Always remember the attitude to wards old materials and immaterial ... disposable and thus denied!

Some leaders are great icons of this theology ... thus be prepared to be an eject or eruptive missal! Essence blast ... blast Phemy?
 
Northwind said:
A profit in itself isn't horrible. Doing it on the backs of vulnerable people is.
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"Profit" in a truly "free" market would necessarily be quite low. If you'd like a model for slim profit margins made up for by volume, look at discount grocery stores.

There's no free market in long term care. You "choose" three homes in your region and you get the first bed in one of them when you need it. If it's an emergency, even that choice is gone. My Mom ended up in flaming Creemore for 18 months. It's a solid 45 minute drive on roads that can be very dangerous in winter.
 
Northwind said:
I like the idea that @Lastpointe presented about dealing with care homes. Yes it is a provincial responsibility. Still, the federal government could play a part in the solution.
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Long haul, the Canada Health Act needs to be renegotiated to include home and longterm care. It's rather sad that those two sectors, which are so critical as boomers and X'ers are getting older now, are still playing second fiddle to acute care in the eyes of the governments that fund healthcare.
 
BetteTheRed said:
There's no free market in long term care. You "choose" three homes in your region and you get the first bed in one of them when you need it. If it's an emergency, even that choice is gone. My Mom ended up in flaming Creemore for 18 months. It's a solid 45 minute drive on roads that can be very dangerous in winter.
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We went through the same thing with Dad. The home he died in was just an emergency backup until one of the ones we picked was available. He didn't last long enough to make it.

That said, I think the criticism needs to be directed at the companies that have problems. Some have done as well as the municipal homes, others have done a terrible job. So I don't think "for profit" is the problem, it's when profit is being put ahead of care that there's a problem.

We see it in home respiratory, too. We could make a lot more money if we just delivered equipment and sold CPAPs. There's home respiratory companies that do that. But we hire RTs and do proper care planning based on the patient's needs and goals. We provide 24x7 care through an on-call system. We encourage our team to go the extra mile (we recently had an employee help a patient get scrips filled and honoured them for that in a town hall). We take high needs patients, like LHIN-funded trach patients and COVID patients, that others won't touch. So you can be a for profit company and still do good healthcare. It's all in how you approach it. Twenty+ years working for a good private healthcare company have shown me that.

Let's not dump on profit, then. Let's dump on bad healthcare and praise good healthcare, regardless of whether anyone makes money on it. If a for-profit company is delivering good healthcare that benefits society, why should be they be penalized for making a profit.

Also, let's not forget that a medical practice is a small for-profit business. If doctors didn't make money over and above their office costs so they could get paid, a lot fewer people would be doing it.
 
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One of our past wondercafe people, LBMuskoka is a provider of PSW's, I think, in what I am guessing is a for profit business. I don't have the details, others likely do. I would trust LBMuskoka to both care for her staff and her clients, and to be providing a valuable service in a much needed place
 
@BetteTheRed -- minor note re no free market. We could have chosen to keep him home with 24x7 staffing, or we could have placed him in a retirement home that provided significant memory care. You do see that, so there is a bit of a free market -- if you have the funds/resources. I feel that the gap is significant and not healthy.
 
Alas in profits ... some do not give a fig for responsibility of what avarice does to the entire system of knowledge ... pre thinking is done ... gone!
 
To clarify what I said above, a profit itself isn't bad in care homes. The complaint I have is with those operators that slash wages, supplies etc in order to make a profit. If a business model doesn't include proper wages for employees and the ability to provide a quality service, then the business shouldn't exist. We've seen the devastating effects of bare bones care home operations. Mike Harris, former premiere of Ontario is involved in running Chartwell. That speaks volumes to me.
 
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