Novel Coronavirus

[Ritafee]

You gave up thanksgiving? Seems you have a lot more than many to be thankful for.
You gave up more income? Sounds like you still have income enough.
You gave up family visits? What family have you been totally cut off from?
PPE ... you gave up PPE? How so?
on and on?

I can not say there is anything that I had to give up that I could not freely do without ... with one exception ... contact with the elderly and isolated ... for their benefit not my own. People that I know would be happy to have a visit from anyone that would give them the time of day to just be with them and fetch them a drink of water or read to them or sing with them or laugh with them or hug them.

People that would rather have some quality time in their life than stay safe in isolation.

I recognize that I am in a privileged position and have no right to decide for others what is worth the risks that they are willing to take to have quality of life over mere existence of life. Most of the elderly that I know would prefer to live their lives to the fullest ... being locked up and neglected does not fit that bill. Not everyone is comfortable with living out the rest of their natural life as a digital entity.

How about the internet ... what if the rules would change to limit your internet access. Would that make you personally less willing to follow the rules.

 

[Lastpointe]

I am all in favor of masks and being careful and taking precautions. But I also want the authorities to have reasons for actions. I want nursing homes to protect their residents. But I want those people to be able to see their families , with protections

i want bad apples to be shut down. But I want people who are following all the guidelines to be allowed to work

my cousin did everything he was asked to do, and still caught it from somewhere. I only see him annually for a few weeks. But he was a lovely man and his loss is a great one

today I heard that there are bus trips from Toronto going to small towns around for shopping

i was like. Are you f...ing kidding me? Let’s allow people to leave a city in lock down and travel to safe small towns and risk those people.

 

[Ritafee]

Health experts are suggesting that the population control strategies have done more harm than good. Here is a comment from the World Health Organization’s special envoy: “We really do appeal to all world leaders: Stop using lockdown as your primary control method.” From another perspective, epidemiologists from Harvard, Oxford and Stanford co-authored “a declaration against lockdown measures, expressing concern about physical and mental impacts of the policy.” THE EPOCH TIMES newspaper/Nov, 2020

Yes ... these findings have been noted in the WC2 numerous times by myself and others. They are declared as misinformation or conspiracy theory and not debatable. It seems that only blind obedience to the rules as they increase is the only means to escape the 'lockdown' paradigm.

Seems that as long as it is the other that will be concentrated into camps and not ourselves we are eager to condone following irrational and unjust rules ... history rhymes. What will it take ... chocolate rations?

 

[Waterfall]

You gave up thanksgiving? Seems you have a lot more than many to be thankful for.
You gave up more income? Sounds like you still have income enough.
You gave up family visits? What family have you been totally cut off from?
PPE ... you gave up PPE? How so?
on and on?

Why do you question my answers, you dont know me?

 

[Ritafee]

I am all in favor of masks and being careful and taking precautions.

As am I ... without force of law or financial ruin as a consequence for non compliance ... masks would never have become the political controversy that it has become.

Shall we now impose camera surveying of public washrooms to ensure the washing of hands.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Stop using lockdown as your primary control method.

And, in fact, the issue is a lot more nuanced, as a deeper read of the WHO quote will reveal. The emphasis is on the word "primary". So, they aren't saying, "don't use this tool"; they are saying, "try other tools first/as well". Which is exactly what most Canadian governments are doing. Identifying high risk areas, like Toronto and Peel, for example, in Ontario, and asking for more restrictive measures than places with fewer cases. So the BBQ guy would be okay still in Barrie; his biggest challenge is his location, and while it's not his fault, neither is it anyone else's that pandemics spread more easily in dense populations. You've got freaking thousands and thousands of people living in enormous towers with shared ventilation systems.

You can decry this situation as you will, but large, dense cities are a world fact of life; in fact, it's the only way that the Earth can try to support so many billions of people.

 

[BetteTheRed]

without force of law or financial ruin as a consequence for non compliance

Unfortunately, your morally superior self notwithstanding, most Western humans are VERY swayed by even the smallest amounts. I have previously commented on the change in behaviour generated by "free" (compared to a nickel each) plastic bags and "no deposit required" (it's a quarter, or a fob) shopping carts.

 

[Ritafee]

Why do you question my answers, you dont know me?

Why do you insist that I do not have the right to question the protocols enforced because I am not personally suffering from them. I see other people suffering and that is enough for me to try to shed some honest light on this perpetual push to just keep my mouth shut and follow the rules so that you can get back to your 'normal' ways sooner.

I will not obey rules that have no basis in 'stopping' the spread of positive test results that are at best highly questionable as to their significance one way or another. Treatment is needed now ... we have ignored preventive health care to our own detriment ... it is too late to turn back the optics. Now we deal with the mess ... there is no way of staying safe from that reality. Destroying what is left of peoples ability to thrive by wrapping it up artificially is not working. Stop telling me to adjust to this insanity to stop this insanity.

People who have nothing left to lose are going to rise up.

The longer they are backed into a corner ... the less concerned they will become about your safety or anyone else's ... it is only just beginning.

 

[BetteTheRed]

And I, too, prefer moral suasion. There was a young woman, a regular customer, who used to flounce by the clerk who mans the front station (free masks, sanitizer, wipes) with a "medical exemption" wave (which I would greet with an internal eye roll). One day, she was at my cash, and the customer in front of her was using oxygen (tubes and tank), with a mask on. Nobody said a word, but I've noticed that now, although she's pretty cavalier about her nose (we call them half-maskers), she does wear one.

 

[Ritafee]

Unfortunately, your morally superior self notwithstanding,

How sincere is that ... I do not profess to be morally superior ... but I am definitely more prone to assessing the situation logically ... and rationally. Evidence supports my conclusions ... we do not need the vaccine and we do not need the tests. We need to attend to the vulnerable population at all levels not just this level of trying to control the spread of 'one more virus'.

most Western humans are VERY swayed by even the smallest amounts. I have previously commented on the change in behaviour generated by "free" (compared to a nickel each) plastic bags and "no deposit required" (it's a quarter, or a fob) shopping carts.

What is your point here ... if it is free people will use it ... what if it was not an option period ... would that not be the proper solution? Stop allowing the profiteering of the production of plastic bags ... that would be a mandate I could get behind. Stop allowing the profiteering off of ill health ... tobacco industry comes to mind. Stop allowing the profiteering of liability free vaccination schedules and on and on.

 

[BetteTheRed]

what if it was not an option period ... would that not be the proper solution?

I don't think you understood my point. The cart thing is the idea of giving up a quarter, if you leave the cart elsewhere but in one of the two "cart corrals". I was not talking about profiteering, but about the habit of many human consumers of automatically taking the cheapest option/changing their behaviour based on the smallest possible amounts of money.

 

[Ritafee]

I don't think you understood my point. The cart thing is the idea of giving up a quarter, if you leave the cart elsewhere but in one of the two "cart corrals". I was not talking about profiteering, but about the habit of many human consumers of automatically taking the cheapest option/changing their behaviour based on the smallest possible amounts of money.

Again ... that applies to people that cannot afford to spare the quarter or people that generally do not care to return the cart one way or another and leave it to someone else to do for them. So I have mentioned before that I had a rich friend that liked to ride his motorcycle but did not like to wear a helmut ... even after he had a near fatal crash ... he took great delight in paying his fines and fighting to get a legal exemption without really having any medical condition that would warrant it.

You see my point ... I might have also mentioned that when my sister wired money to a friend in need in the Dominican ... after having collected that wire transfer and on his return home on his small motor bike to bring his family of 6 whatever it was that they had needed the money for in the first place ... he removed his mask within a block of his 3 room apartment (did I mention a family of 6 living there) he was pulled over by the police and confined in the church that they are using for detaining such criminals and was held there for 3 days without his family even knowing of his whereabouts.

 

[KayTheCurler]

What have you had to give up to follow the rules?

What could they take away from you personally that would make you not agree to follow the rules?

Things given up so far.
A summer filled with camping and family.
Birthday celebrations.
Time spent with family.
Time spent with friends.
Trips to other places.
Access to safe exercise suited to my needs.
Swimming pool access.
Watching grands playing a variety of sports.
Thanksgiving celebrations.
Relaxed access to stores.
Non emergency medical care.
Christmas as we once knew it.

I would almost certainly 'cheat' if my guy was not around as I doubt I could handle all the chores.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Rita, with apologies for my lack of understanding, I do not get your point. If you are trying to make the point that some local health units are doing this badly, then yeah. I think AB as a whole doing this badly, Quebec and Ontario trying hard, despite the density they suffer from, BC and the Maritimes doing pretty well.

My point is, and continues to be, vis a vis your problem with "fines", that if you need certain behaviours, like masking, distancing, reinforced for whatever reason, that money is a motivator.

 

[BetteTheRed]

that money is a motivator.

Maybe not for you, but for a huge majority of your fellow inhabitants of the planet, whether you like it or not.

 

[Ritafee]

Maybe not for you, but for a huge majority of your fellow inhabitants of the planet, whether you like it or not.

Yes money is a motivator ... for child trafficking for contraband for prison complexes for inadequate health care for experimental vaccines ... for child labor ... for wars ... for plunder pillage and rape of every sort. Fining a person that is too poor to pay the fine makes no sense. Most people take risks because they cannot afford not to have to.

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

How about the internet ... what if the rules would change to limit your internet access. Would that make you personally less willing to follow the rules.

Yep, there are serious viruses on the internet. Probably a pandemic. The government will force us to wear masks while surfing the net and eventually shut it down.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Most people take risks because they cannot afford not to have to.

Do explain that to my flouncing anti-masker who was offered a free mask. Masks are not a budget-destroying expense, especially if you have a friend/family member handy with a sewing machine.

 

[ChemGal]

Rita, with apologies for my lack of understanding, I do not get your point. If you are trying to make the point that some local health units are doing this badly, then yeah. I think AB as a whole doing this badly, Quebec and Ontario trying hard, despite the density they suffer from, BC and the Maritimes doing pretty well.

My point is, and continues to be, vis a vis your problem with "fines", that if you need certain behaviours, like masking, distancing, reinforced for whatever reason, that money is a motivator.

I would actually argue some of the local health units here are doing this well, considering what's been handed to them eg.

EZMSA — ZMSA

albertazmsa.com

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

Health experts are suggesting that the population control strategies have done more harm than good. Here is a comment from the World Health Organization’s special envoy: “We really do appeal to all world leaders: Stop using lockdown as your primary control method.”

This suggests to me what it says - "don't use lockdown as your primary control method".

It doesn't mean that, if tracing and wearing of masks, and social distancing, fail - never use lockdown.

I find it interesting that Australia, compared to many western countries, is more willing to use lockdown when it's necessary? To make this viable we had Jobkeeper and Jobseeker programmes in place -which kept many businesses and families functioning. (The amount given out has been reduced - which I disagree with)

My own theory is that, compared to many similar countries, our "European settler' period is only just over 200 years old. In our case - it was mainly those from Britain and Ireland. Imagine the shock? They travelled across the world to a completely different environment - and it took the best part of 100 years to learn to adapt. Houses in our tropical north had chimneys - just like "back home"'! Many of our first British explorers died in the outback from the heat and lack of water. (They didn't seem to wonder why our aboriginals were coping - after-all they were seen as "savages'.)

In my grandparents generation, most were born in the rural areas - and they, through necessity, learnt that to survive you had to depend on your neighbour.

Being "a mate' is still a part of our culture....

To me, that explains, why most (but certainly not all) were not so concerned with individual rights -and could be persuaded to do what was considered to be in the best interests of society as a whole.

And, as for this "terrible lockdown" that has been so criticized overseas, Australians will be enjoying as normal as possible festive season.
If, in our next Winter, the numbers get out of tracing control, I hope we'll be asked to lock-down again.

The results speak for themselves.