Thirst-gry?

[GordW]

THis week I find myself continuing in the wilderness with the people of Israel. Last week they were complaining about being hungry. Now they are thirsty (maybe the manna was salty??? )

My sermon title was sparked by the SNickers ads, which tell us about being changed when we are hungry -- "you aren't your self when you're hungry". ANd then I pondered, how do we respond when we sense our needs are not being met? And what do we thirst for? DO we trust that we are not alone?

Early thoughts...

Looking Ahead to September 27, 2020 -- Proper 21A, 17th After Pentecost

The Scripture Readings this week are: Exodus 17:1-17 Psalm 105:1-6, 37-45 The Sermon title is Thirst-gry? Early Thoughts: Have you had on...

gordsponderings.blogspot.com

 

[unsafe]

GordW ---you said -----My sermon title was sparked by the SNickers ads,

I say ----LOL ---I guess snickers out weights what the Holy Spirit might have sparked for a sermon on how hunger and thirst changes us ----I personally think it depends on what we are hungry and thirsty for ----actual physical food and drink or Spiritual food and drink ------snickers has this slogan ----which I assume your idea came from ----
“You're not you when you're hungry” --

This is a piece from an article on snickers ----just posting this part ---read all if you wish ---

‘You’re Not You When You’re Hungry’: The Best Ad Campaign Ever?

Behind the 10-year-old Snickers campaign that launched a global comeback

medium.com

Positioning: Snickers’ Big Idea
Snickers’ positioning had always varied along a spectrum from energy recharge on the one end to satisfaction on the other. What they discovered is that the common ground between the two was hunger; when you’re hungry you have less energy, and when you’re satisfied, you’re no longer hungry.

I say -----Well I agree that physical hunger and thirst can and does change our mental and physical condition ----Spiritual hunger and thirst has negative effects on our spiritual journey --

I like how you did bring God into the equation as you are using God's word -----

I say -----their grumbling is not without some merit physical hunger and thirst can kill humans if left unattended to ------but is grumbling the right thing to be doing in God's eyes --that is the real question -----

Exodus 17:3
New International Version
But the people were thirsty for water there, and they grumbled against Moses. They said, "Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to make us and our children and livestock die of thirst?"

I say ----So we see that they grumbled against Moses -----but Moses is obeying God ----so they are really grumbling against God -----So is Grumbling against God a sin ? -----

For me I say yes ----I think it is OK to take our complaints to God ---but not to complain about God --The Israelites were not trusting God and this was not helping their cause -----it was causing doubt and unbelief as well as fear and anxiety and clouded their judgement of God's Promise and His Grace that He had showed them many times during all their grumbling and complaining and disobedience ----

So I say ---yes I agree with what you say about needing to feel that we are not alone and that we are in fact being looked after properly ----Many people do feel like they are alone in this pandemic wilderness I am sure -----who can you trust to be feeding your thirst for the truth of being properly informed about this pandemic and having a plan in place to cope with all the emotional states like fear --doubt and anxiety which can manifest in our lives -----

The Israelites didn't realize how lucky they were to have God himself in their lives ---they were God's chosen people and they just disregarded Him as someone who they distrusted even though God brought them out of slavery -----they knew of God only ---they saw the sea part ---they saw the Egyptians be stopped by swirls of fire --they saw their bread come from heaven -----they saw the water come from a rock ---they witnessed all this --but it made no difference in their grumbling --disobedience and distrust in their God who freed them from slavery -----and promised them a safe land -----

Today ---- Just like the Israelites ----God is the only one to bring us out of this pandemic wilderness ----but many today are like the Israelites --they knew of God but they didn't personally know God ----and today we have the luxury of knowing God personally by and through receiving His Son in our hearts --we don't have to be like the Israelites in the wilderness consumed with fear --doubt --anxiety -and confusion about where they would end up ------We can trust God fully to guide us and totally look after our needs if we have God in us and trust that He will do as He says in His Word -----

We have God's word to be our witness as to His Promises to correctly direct us and provide for us and protect us during this present pandemic wilderness ---- with God in us we are not alone and victory is the end result -----God's word is full of victory battles with God at the helm ----

Jesus said in John 15 ----I am the true vine you are the branch -----

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

I say ----So if we are apart from God out in the wilderness of this pandemic we are either on our own to fight the elements or relying on other humans to help us ---we have free will to choose to be with God or be apart from God ----God out of His Grace gave us that freedom of choice ----

 

[BetteTheRed]

I say ----So if we are apart from God out in the wilderness of this pandemic we are either on our own to fight the elements or relying on other humans to help us ---we have free will to choose to be with God or be apart from God ----God out of His Grace gave us that freedom of choice ----

Confused. I see three options in your answer: i) on our own, ii) relying on other humans, iii) bringing god into the equation.

ii) seems the most sensible, with iii) an optional add on depending on your BS.

 

[Luce NDs]

God being everything to some folk .. it adds up in the scheme on integration!

Isn't that Sum-thing? Still some remain autonomous ... wall builders ... they can't see much for their constructs ... thus Mar Roue in the bones of vite!

 

[unsafe]

BetteTheRed -----you said ----Confused.

No confusion there -----you picked number 2 as sensible to you -- which is relying on other humans ----if that is more sensible to you than that is your choice which you have the right pick for your choice ------

Then you put 3 as an option which is relying on God depending on your BS -----

For me personally it is not an option ---I would rather rely on God to bring me through to a victory end in the wilderness pandemic than any human and I certainly wouldn't want to rely on myself to get me through ---God knows how this pandemic started ---why it started and what the solution is to get rid of it in the world and in our personal lives ------no human knows that information -----humans talk about a vaccine ---there is so much confusion as to where and when with humans about time line etc ----No confusion for the people who rely on God ----God promises Protection for His Children but you first have to become His Child by and through adoption Now to have that protection ----The Jewish Nation was chosen by God ---they didn't ask to be chosen --God needed a nation to have a Covenant with and HE Chose the Nation He wanted -----By God sending His Son for the purpose He did ---We now have the choice to choose to be part of God's family or not -----all up to us -----Adam disconnected us from God by his disobedience in the Garden -----We have to reconnect to God ---Jesus is the bridge to that

Only God has all the answers to end this wilderness experience we are in right now ----as He had a purpose in allowing it and no humans knows what that purpose is ----even the experts are scratching their heads over this BetteTheRed and even you must see that happening -----

Your believe in Judaism I think ---so your still in the Old Testament and this is what it says in Isaiah -----real all if you wish -----verse 2 confirms that God cannot entertain human corruption -God can save - ---BUT --we must clear ourselves of what Adam brought in ----iniquity and sin --the New Testament tells us how to clear ourselves of these things -----Jesus is the way according to scripture ----

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 59 - New International Version

Sin, Confession and Redemption - Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear. But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear. For your hands are stained with blood, your fingers with...

www.biblegateway.com

Isaiah 59 (NIV)
Sin, Confession and Redemption

Surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save,
nor his ear too dull to hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear.


I say------ the Israelites had it made in the wilderness but they wavered in their Faith and trust ------their provisions and protection was there but their human nature stood in the way ------

- - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Isaiah+43&version=NIV
Israel’s Only Savior
43 But now, this is what the Lord says—
he who created you, Jacob,
he who formed you, Israel:
“Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;
I have summoned you by name; you are mine.
2 When you pass through the waters,
I will be with you;
and when you pass through the rivers,
they will not sweep over you.
When you walk through the fire,
you will not be burned;
the flames will not set you ablaze.
3 For I am the Lord your God,

 

[BetteTheRed]

Just to absolutely clarify my position, unsafe. I self-identify as a follower of Jesus's way. I am not Jewish, but through exposure to Jewish people and customs, I have become a little more informed about the religion than your "average" Christian. It's also, I think, my responsibility as "Christian Educator", in that I am the team leader of the congregational group "Faith Formation and Christian Education" in my United Church congregation, to understand as much as I can about other religions. We've done a series about Islam, and I'm working in conjunction with another gentleman on a series around the Seven Grandfather Teachings this fall.

I've just re-read Gord's opening blog with his ideas on the passage and one that struck me was the idea that "we are not alone", and how our BS might inform that.

My BS (belief system) is not one that most people would find intrinsically comforting. I believe that we are without knowledge, looking through the glass darkly. I don't know or care anything about an afterlife, thinking it fanciful wishful thinking, and it certainly doesn't motivate me, although threats of hell will cause me to raise an eyebrow at you.

However, if one has either a "pantheist" or "panentheist" view of divinity, then there's little room in your BS to "feel alone" (and I understand that I am an individual who needs to have logic behind their beliefs). If godde is everything and everywhere, then godde cannot absent goddeself from anywhere or anything, so this little human can never be "alone".

 

[Mendalla]

However, if one has either a "pantheist" or "panentheist" view of divinity, then there's little room in your BS to "feel alone" (and I understand that I am an individual who needs to have logic behind their beliefs). If godde is everything and everywhere, then godde cannot absent goddeself from anywhere or anything, so this little human can never be "alone".

Amen. Though I would amend the "pantheist" part to point out that many modern pantheists don't have a personal conception of God so could likely be "alone" in some respects. Certainly, there's no one to listen when you pray as there is in a traditional or panenthiest conception of God.

 

[GordW]

However, if one has either a "pantheist" or "panentheist" view of divinity, then there's little room in your BS to "feel alone" (and I understand that I am an individual who needs to have logic behind their beliefs). If godde is everything and everywhere, then godde cannot absent goddeself from anywhere or anything, so this little human can never be "alone".

However one can still "feel" alone and abandoned even if our BS claims that this is never the actual truth. I suspect this is often a reality for many -- Iknow there have been times for me.

 

[Mendalla]

I suspect that "being alone" may be part of my unbelief system. "We are not alone" just does not resonate with me. I've been alone a lot of times in my life and it has always been other human beings, not a belief in God, that has fixed that. And, no, I don't think that God brought those people to me or whatever.

 

[unsafe]

BetteTheRed -----you said ----If godde is everything and everywhere, then godde cannot absent goddeself from anywhere or anything, so this little human can never be "alone".

I say ---well what you say here is right ----God is never absent from us BetteTheRed ----People absent themselves from God by sin and iniquity------All humans are born sinners ----that is what the scripture says -----God is always there for us ------if you want to dismiss that fact that you are born a sinner that is what you want to do ---but that goes against what the truth of the scriptures say -----and you are saying you follow Jesus way -----

So if you say you self identify as following the way of Jesus ---then you are saying the word is the truth and you follow the word ----as Jesus is the word and the truth --

You said -----I think, my responsibility as "Christian Educator", in that I am the team leader of the congregational group "Faith Formation and Christian Education" in my United Church congregation, to understand as much as I can about other religions.

I say ---so we are to love all people no matter their beliefs -----this I agree with ----but being an Faith Christian Educator and saying you are following Jesus way ----means in my view that you love the person no matter what their belief but teach the Word ---the way of Jesus in your Faith Christian Education class which is following Jesus way and truth --so good for you -----Jesus said ----I am the WAY___NOT WAYS -----and TheTruth ----Not Truths ---and no one comes to the Father but Through Me -----Not Through Many Others -----that is what Jesus says ------

You see ---your either with Jesus or your not -----there is no inbetween ----according to Jesus who is the word ----
read all here
Matthew 12:30 ----CSB ----A House Divided

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 12 - Christian Standard Bible

Lord of the Sabbath - At that time Jesus passed through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick and eat some heads of grain. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “See, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.” He said to...

classic.biblegateway.com

30 Anyone who is not with me is against me, and anyone who does not gather with me scatters.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Oh, yes, but in Mark 9:40, "In fact, whoever is not against us is on our side."

 

[unsafe]

BetteTheRed -----and your point for quoting this scripture is ? Mark9:30

 

[BetteTheRed]

unsafe, the chapter of Mark, chapter 9, vs. 40, "In fact, whoever is not against is is on our side". I am not against you. I am not against native spirituality, or Islam or Buddhism; I believe we all have "truths" about love, and the best way to live in community with all our relations. According to Mk 9:40, neither was Jesus, except, perhaps, in adherents of any religion who advocate for legalism no matter what the individual human condition.

 

[BetteTheRed]

However one can still "feel" alone and abandoned even if our BS claims that this is never the actual truth. I suspect this is often a reality for many -- Iknow there have been times for me.

Completely agree. I am, at times, the "Mistress of Despair". My "otherwise" anchor is two fold: this logical understanding of my own BS (and Mendalla, beg to differ, it's the "pan" that matters when it comes to "not alone" to me) coupled with a very individual mystic/dream experience. My mother's legacy of "euphoria vs despair" translated non-bipolarly (i.e. minus psychosis, which has always struck me as potentially fun), is "depressive rumination" vs "anxiety". I'm also the Mistress of Disguise, to some level, sometimes.

 

[unsafe]

BetteTheRed -----you said ------unsafe, the chapter of Mark, chapter 9, vs. 40, "In fact, whoever is not against is is on our side". I am not against you. I am not against native spirituality, or Islam or Buddhism; I believe we all have "truths" about love, and the best way to live in community with all our relations. According to Mk 9:40, neither was Jesus,

BetteTheRed ----here is a perfect example of a person taking a piece of scripture out of context and using it to suit their own agenda ----twisting scripture to say something it doesn't -----this scripture has absolutely nothing to do with you or Jesus not being against native spiritually --or Islam or Buddhism ----your are grasping at straws and using scripture to satisfy Your Belief not God's ---

I say ------
This scripture you quote is about a disciple of Jesus who is not part of the 12 and who is expressing his Faith ----that is putting his Faith into outward action--- expelling a demon from a person and the some of the 12 Disciples get over zealous in calling this person out just because he is not part of their group -----and Jesus says to His 12 --don't stop him cause anyone who has the Faith to preform a miracle IN MY NAME must be held to be on our side not against us -----

This is that scripture ---

Mark 9:38-40 (CSB)
In His Name
38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone[a] driving out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him because he wasn’t following us.”

39 “Don’t stop him,” said Jesus, “because there is no one who will perform a miracle in my name who can soon afterward speak evil of me. 40 For whoever is not against us is for us.

I say ---
Jesus was alive here BetteTheRed and only through Jesus who gave the Disciples the Faith and Power to do miracles were they able to even try to Preform those Miracles ----we are to step out and put our Faith into the right action -----and that is what this person was doing ----

This is a big problem in the churches today -----people taking the Truth out of context and twisting it to make it fit their own belief system -----many people are being sent to their doom by using scripture in this way ----that is my view on that---

 

[Mendalla]

In fact, whoever is not against is is on our side

I do have a bit of a problem with Jesus' logic here because it assumes a binary. I don't think the valid position of "I don't give a *bleep*" constitutes support and that is a valid position to take on Jesus and Christianity. You're not actively opposing it but you're not engaging in or actively supporting it either. You're tolerating its existence but dismissing its relevance and that's about it.

 

[BetteTheRed]

I do have a bit of a problem with Jesus' logic here because it assumes a binary. I don't think the valid position of "I don't give a *bleep*" constitutes support and that is a valid position to take on Jesus and Christianity. You're not actively opposing it but you're not engaging in or actively supporting it either. You're tolerating its existence but dismissing its relevance and that's about it.

Agreed, but my point is that the logic of this passage is directly in opposition to the (later) Matthew passage stating that if you're not for me, you're against me.

 

[BetteTheRed]

And unsafe, honestly, if you're going to respond to a position with a single verse, as you did to me above, I can respond in the same way.

What can we agree upon? What makes a good life that works for the max number of people? I would like to argue that "exclusion" is probably not the direction that God, Moses and Jesus intended.

 

[revjohn]

My sermon title was sparked by the SNickers ads, which tell us about being changed when we are hungry -- "you aren't your self when you're hungry". ANd then I pondered, how do we respond when we sense our needs are not being met? And what do we thirst for? DO we trust that we are not alone?

The Snickers ads are genius because it is a phenomenon that many have experienced when they are hungry. I don't think it translates to thirst precisely. I think thirst reveals yearning. In the moment it is not something specific so much as it is a universal wetness. In extreme circumstances that desire to have our thirst quenched can lead to very questionable decisions.

And of course who we are when we are hangry is who we are. It is who we are when our needs aren't catered to. It is who we are when we are not at our best. It is who we are warts expose.

Our thirst points us to something other because as thirsty as we are we know that the only real solution is to find a drink that satisfies. Being thirsty likely doesn't make us hangry so much as it makes us desperate.

 

[unsafe]

BetteTheRed ----you said ----Agreed, but my point is that the logic of this passage is directly in opposition to the (later) Matthew passage stating that if you're not for me, you're against me.

I say ----NO it is not in opposition with the Matthew passage BetteTheRed ------it is your human understanding and reasoning that is saying it is in opposition -----

Matthew 12:30 ----the Pharisees who should be accepting Jesus are excluding Him and calling Him Satan ----Jesus says to them -----

24 When the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man drives out demons only by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons.”

25 Knowing their thoughts, he told them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is headed for destruction, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out? For this reason they will be your judges. 28 If I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

I say ----
This passage is speaking of the inward Faith and the power of the Holy Spirit ----Jesus did no Miracles until The Holy Spirit came upon Him ------it also shows that some who say they are followers of Jesus are not -----The Pharisees claimed to be followers of God ---but refused to believe who Jesus was -----

The other passage Mark 9:40 is speaking of putting this Faith in who Jesus said He was into action outwardly and trusting Jesus who has given the power to His Disciples to exercise demons and to do miracles ----

So both passages are speaking of the same thing ----one inward profession of Faith and the other outward profession of Faith by putting it into the right action -----which the Disciple did by trying to call out the demon in the man -----both speak of Faith in Jesus -----

They both have nothing to do with what you implied in your post -----today people have either received Jesus in their heart or they haven't -----and we will eventually speak what is in our heart -----according to scripture ----

this is Matthew 12 CSB ---Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees here -----

A Tree and Its Fruit
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit will be good, or make the tree bad[i] and its fruit will be bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you speak good things when you are evil? For the mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart.