Can we please stop misusing the name "Karen"?

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I find you two complement each other well!

Complement or compliment?

You're right. I think @Northwind and I have had a pretty well rounded debate/ bitch/ Karen session tonight.

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

The whole problem with the Karen labeling is that it is a stereotype. First, it had some meaning to express a racist female personality. But look at you two in the last 50 or so posts. Kimmio is using it to slap it into Northwind‘s face, because they disagree. It has nothing to do anymore with expressing racism, it just gets used as a stereotype to express a judgement. Have stereotypes ever been successful in solving conflicts?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

The whole problem with the Karen labeling is that it is a stereotype. First, it had some meaning to express a racist female personality. But look at you two in the last 50 or so posts. Kimmio is using it to slap it into Northwind‘s face, because they disagree. It has nothing to do anymore with expressing racism, it just gets used as a stereotype to express a judgement. Have stereotypes ever been successful in solving conflicts?

Actually I provided pretty extensive reasoning on it, because I looked into it a bit deeper - how it is subversive, how it’s viewed through a black feminist lens which is less historically privileged than the white feminist experience (and this divide was appearing in the feminist movements in the 60s and 70s, because of the relative privilege of white women controlling the feminist narrative and they still try) - I actually found it interesting how “Karen” is a meta-word that effectively exposes a particular attitude just by it being used, it’s not just an empty explanation - and the attitude is a reactionary one - that could also be called “throwback to the colonial debutante”... and the reaction by white women in our culture is not surprisingly, self righteous indignation because we’re too fragile to accept the critique that the term carries and exposes about us. It expresses how deeply rooted systemic racism is in our culture. I accept that we’ve got some bad roots and histories as white women, too - it’s not sexist for black women to call white women Karen or to use it in that context. It’s racist to write it off - and we need to learn or relearn some things. I got slapped in the face for presenting the critique as it was actually playing out - the subversive term exposed some faults and fault lines. I am not “all knowing” - I get curious and look into current issues and find things out because I feel it’s necessary. But I expect to get slapped in the face now. I have for years. I don’t know my place, apparently.

 

[Luce NDs]

The whole problem with the Karen labeling is that it is a stereotype. First, it had some meaning to express a racist female personality. But look at you two in the last 50 or so posts. Kimmio is using it to slap it into Northwind‘s face, because they disagree. It has nothing to do anymore with expressing racism, it just gets used as a stereotype to express a judgement. Have stereotypes ever been successful in solving conflicts?

Actually Andrew Greely stated in Ab Occasion Of Sin that there were only two saints ... The Bishop of Myra (sante clause) and a Katherine from Franc domains ... nicknamed Karen, caring or Quran ... just to arouse more relating to dreams and impossibilities for physical relations in heaven ... the script extends, and exo dices! Tis a dicey topic ... like sex & Kirk!

 

[Waterfall]

I'm not a fan of "naming and shaming".....

 

[Northwind]

I got slapped in the face for presenting the critique as it was actually playing out - the subversive term exposed some faults and fault lines. I am not “all knowing” - I get curious and look into current issues and find things out because I feel it’s necessary. But I expect to get slapped in the face now. I have for years. I don’t know my place, apparently.

Kimmio I stated my reasons for not liking labels, and why "Karen" is not a useful tool for social change. I got slammed for that and told I was acting like a Karen. I was accused of things that were not accurate. I did not experience a discussion that involved a critique.

I have spent years learning about the issues involved with this issue. I have heard the lived experiences of people who have endured racism and oppression. I would love to participate in a good discussion. I do not love being treated as if I know nothing.

This is not about knowing your place. Whatever that is. It is about listening and learning. It's about finding ways to disagree that don't involve using the label to slap in the disagreeing person's face. All that does is raise defensiveness and shut down discussion. It is a good demonstration of why labels don't work.

What I experienced last night was not healthy debate.

 

[revsdd]

The most ironic thing about this thread is that it's named "Can We Please Stop Misusing The Name Karen" and is posted on a site where I don't think anyone on the site has actually used the name Karen in this way until this thread asking that we not misuse the name Karen was posted.

It's a weird world we live in.

 

[BetteTheRed]

I'm not even sure, outside of a certain social media context, that it's even universally used.

I last used it, laughingly, to describe a gay friend's part in a skit as part of a church service. "Oh, J_____, you played a perfect Karen!" He's a 30 something guy, pretty culture-literate (I mean, he's a playwright to start with), from Ontario, and he didn't know the reference I was making.

 

[Waterfall]

The most ironic thing about this thread is that it's named "Can We Please Stop Misusing The Name Karen" and is posted on a site where I don't think anyone on the site has actually used the name Karen in this way until this thread asking that we not misuse the name Karen was posted.

It's a weird world we live in.

By the time white people catch on it's usually not used anymore, lol.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Kimmio I stated my reasons for not liking labels, and why "Karen" is not a useful tool for social change. I got slammed for that and told I was acting like a Karen. I was accused of things that were not accurate. I did not experience a discussion that involved a critique.

I have spent years learning about the issues involved with this issue. I have heard the lived experiences of people who have endured racism and oppression. I would love to participate in a good discussion. I do not love being treated as if I know nothing.

This is not about knowing your place. Whatever that is. It is about listening and learning. It's about finding ways to disagree that don't involve using the label to slap in the disagreeing person's face. All that does is raise defensiveness and shut down discussion. It is a good demonstration of why labels don't work.

What I experienced last night was not healthy debate.

I don't think you could handle a debate. If I challenge your pov - you'd probably say "what are you - a know it all? Do you think you know everything?i've had years of experience, you are clueless Don't tell me what to think!" You'd probably tell a black person, if they made the same argument - that they were being a colonial know it all. That's how ironic it is.

It might not have been a healthy, or standard "debate" but it exposed some faults, particularly Karenisms. From both of us. (But gotta say you were worse.) That's ultimately healthy if we face them and change that.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

By the time white people catch on it's usually not used anymore, lol.

(Maybe because some white person who doesn't get it complains and puts a stop to it. Mendalla was being a Karen. He would've spoken to the manager if he wasn't sort of a manager.)

Because we get Karenish and offended by it? or put off because pejoritives to describe people are "never okay" - especially in our white world sensibilities because now we realize how we abused and dehumanized multitudes of people with them in the past and we want to forget about it - and now we're offended by the cultural appropriation of a name used how we don't think it should be?

 

[Northwind]

I don't think you could handle a debate. If I challenge your pov - you'd probably say "what are you - a know it all? Do you think you know everything?

You'd probably tell a black person, if they made the same argument - that they were being a colonial know it all. That's how ironic it is.

The two comments above are exactly what I was describing. Attacks, not debate. Assumptions rather than attempts to understand.

Debate does not involve attacks.

(But gotta say you were worse.)

Of course. You're never to blame apparently.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

The two comments above are exactly what I was describing. Attacks, not debate. Assumptions rather than attempts to understand.

Debate does not involve attacks.




Of course. You're never to blame apparently.

Have you ever watched a vigorous debate? I'm quite sure you would take an "attack" on your point of view as an attack on you. You did seem to take personally, my laying out my position. You seemed enraged that I was some kind of know it all (who might know more than you on some things, sometimes, but not all things all the time? Maybe your perspective, one that is not yours alone, is dated and needs challenging? I felt that your perspective needed challenging. You don't take kindly to that, ever.)

When I'm to blame, I'm to blame - yes I do take blame and I apologize - but not for this. I don't feel I need to. I think I was on the correct side of the argument.

You shut down arguments for the way they're presented. My observation, by the way that you accused me of being 'colonial' because I dared challenge you, was that I was presenting my best understanding of the validity of the use of the word Karen through a black feminist framework, and for doing that I got called a know it all who was being a colonial. So - take the log out of your own damn eye would you?

 

[Northwind]

I do not take your position personally Kimmio. I've told you many times before. I don't think you are a know it all. What I'm saying is that it seems disagreement with you triggers attacks from you. I am quite capable of debate and can debate with most reasonable people. You say my position needed challenging. We all need challenging. I have tried to challenge your position. It can't be done without ending up being attacked.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I do not take your position personally Kimmio. I've told you many times before. I don't think you are a know it all. What I'm saying is that it seems disagreement with you triggers attacks from you. I am quite capable of debate and can debate with most reasonable people. You say my position needed challenging. We all need challenging. I have tried to challenge your position. It can't be done without ended up being attacked.

I just watched a couple of old parliamentary clips. I think maybe you're imagining something that doesn't exist when two people debate positions that each feels strongly about. Existentially even. But the white mainstream does not have that level of concern unless we choose to take it on. Lots of people don't have a choice about their positions - it's not just an intellectual exercise -they're living them. Sure we can have a polite, peachy debate over the best ice cream flavours, but if it's of critical importance then yeah, it's bound to feel personal and you need to know that you attack personally too. Often. You do not play fair.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

There are lots of things I like about you Northwind - your "inner bitch" isn't one of them. It attacks, personally. You - your inner bitch I should say, not you all the time - got so mad you reached for the disability slurs to make an irrelevant argument.

Your grammar policing was an irrelevant argument meant to distract from the main issues. You play dirty. It's not good. Don't school me on personal attacks and civil debates - it's hypocritical. Change yourself, your rapport, and be a better example to follow in a debate.

 

[Northwind]

You know what, I used those labels to make a point. You didn't like it, did you. Labels do not help with communication.

I'd like to know where you got the idea I want a polite peachy debate. You mentioned that I allegedly want manners and big words. Describing behaviours instead of using labels does not have to be polite.

As long as you accuse me of thinking I consider you inferior we won't be able to discuss properly.

This past year has had an impact on me. Going through a year of cancer treatment and entering into a maintenance treatment phase makes me not give a flying f*** about the little things. I am more direct in general and make no apologies for that. I will not tolerate attacks based on misconceptions. That is completely different from critique and challenging.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

You know what, I used those labels to make a point. You didn't like it, did you. Labels do not help with communication.

I'd like to know where you got the idea I want a polite peachy debate. You mentioned that I allegedly want manners and big words. Describing behaviours instead of using labels does not have to be polite.

As long as you accuse me of thinking I consider you inferior we won't be able to discuss properly.

This past year has had an impact on me. Going through a year of cancer treatment and entering into a maintenance treatment phase makes me not give a flying f*** about the little things. I am more direct in general and make no apologies for that. I will not tolerate attacks based on misconceptions. That is completely different from critique and challenging.

Your point was missed. It was just bitchy and mean.

"Karen" is not a "punching down" pejorative. From a black feminist perspective (that I do not know a whole lot about but I learned something about "Karen" in that context) the use of the word Karen is punching up at colonialism. You asking me if you should call me a crip or a gimp was not only an attack, it was misplaced. And I've learned not to count on apologies from you.

 

[Ritafee]

I am quite capable of debate and can debate with most reasonable people.

Exercise 1
What are the essential traits of a “reasonable person” – if indeed there are any? For purposes of this question, a trait is “essential” only if a person who lacks the trait should not be regarded as “reasonable.”
Exercise 2
As quickly as you can, think of THREE people you know personally whom you consider to be a good example of a “reasonable person.” What traits do they have in common beyond some idea of “reasonableness”?
Exercise 3
Imagine that you’re eight years old. You’ve been given a sheet of blank paper, and a box of 152 Crayola Crayons. Your teacher tells you to draw a “reasonable person.” You do. What color is your “reasonable person”? And is the person male or female?
Exercise 4*
For each of the following categories, picture someone who's a good example of the category. Think quickly. You need not picture a real person or someone you know.
Criminal
Terrorist
Thug
Professor
Engineer
Doctor
Reasonable Person
Were you able to picture a reasonable person? If so, what did that person look like, and how was it similar to or different from the examples for other categories?
Exercise 5
Close your eyes. Imagine you've gone to a downtown bar and had a few drinks with friends. It's late, and now you're taking a shortcut through an alley back to your car. Picture every detail: the stained and grimy asphalt; the old red bricks of a building; the faint smell of garbage; a rat scurrying ahead of you; the halo of a distant street light. Now, imagine that a person with a gun steps from the shadows and demands your wallet or purse. Describe that person quickly, as you first pictured them.

 

[Ritafee]

I am quite capable of debate and can debate with most reasonable people. You say my position needed challenging. We all need challenging.

Does your prototypical 'most reasonable people' consist of some combination of you, people like you, and people you know?