TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?

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But we know neonazis represent some of the most horrific violence in history...so it’s not just “words” and freedom of expression. That’s a ruse. No, I don’t think this is the left’s fault.

You seem to be saying that violence is the issue. While that's a big problem, it isn't the only problem. So, saying that the left is not violent so the left is not to blame is shortsighted.

I am in no way saying it is all the left's fault. I am saying that the left can be part of the problem. Basically, holding an "I am right, you are wrong" stance feeds the polarization and dysfunction in our society. So, yes, the left contributes to the problems. There is no way we can find workable solutions if we only see one right way from our own silos.
 
You seem to be saying that violence is the issue. While that's a big problem, it isn't the only problem. So, saying that the left is not violent so the left is not to blame is shortsighted.

I am in no way saying it is all the left's fault. I am saying that the left can be part of the problem. Basically, holding an "I am right, you are wrong" stance feeds the polarization and dysfunction in our society. So, yes, the left contributes to the problems. There is no way we can find workable solutions if we only see one right way from our own silos.
Where do you see the left at fault with the rise of far right extremism/ fascism/ neonazis today? That is what is at issue now. It is the biggest sociopolitical threat in the world. If it gets a firm foothold....everything goes to s**t. Everything. There will be no rights and no freedom for anybody but rich people of European descent, or ethnofascism in other places...everybody divided into their ethnonational enclaves...as with naziism past, everything went to s**t...freedom, diversity, everything humans have struggled for, turning to s**t. If anyone thinks the refugee crisis is bad now...what then? Do you believe that steadfastly choosing fiscal conservatism while opening the door to neonazis, prioritizing the fiscal aspect, is reasonable? I doubt that you do. Do you think it’s more reasonable, maybe, to take a firm stance against certain things, and not compromise, so it doesn’t get worse?


:(
 
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I said nothing about neonazis. You're the one fixated on that.

Again I say - a huge problem is the polarization in society. The left has absolutely contributed to that.

I'll just quote myself since you apparently did not read what I wrote. I don't know how to be any clearer

Basically, holding an "I am right, you are wrong" stance feeds the polarization and dysfunction in our society. So, yes, the left contributes to the problems. There is no way we can find workable solutions if we only see one right way from our own silos.
 
I said nothing about neonazis. You're the one fixated on that.

Again I say - a huge problem is the polarization in society. The left has absolutely contributed to that.

I'll just quote myself since you apparently did not read what I wrote. I don't know how to be any clearer
It’s relevant. That’s why. It’s relevant to discussion on left right polarization. It’s relevant. It’s relevant. It’s relevant.

The polarization started because the far right planted the seeds, manipulated the minds with psy-ops, and social media, worked to get far right politicians elected, tried to discredit race and gender studies and history, started s**t at universities, got jobs in security and policing...etc. And let’s not forget what the far right is promoting...lest you say the left does those things too. Because the left is not promoting evil today, the far right is.
 
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Apparently I'm a f***ing idiot.

Goodnight.
People who support neonazis ignorantly because they don’t acknowledge slippery slopes when reality is staring them in the face, are f***ing idiots. I didn’t call you a f***ing idiot. I am just fed up with all the f***ing idiots ignoring the far right. And at this juncture it just feels better to say f***. And, idiots.
 
It’s relevant. That’s why. It’s relevant to discussion on left right polarization. It’s relevant. It’s relevant. It’s relevant.

The polarization started because the far right planted the seeds, manipulated the minds with psy-ops, and social media, worked to get far right politicians elected, tried to discredit race and gender studies and history, started s**t at universities, got jobs in security and policing...etc. And let’s not forget what the far right is promoting...lest you say the left does those things too. Because the left is not promoting evil today, the far right is.
 
I said nothing about neonazis. You're the one fixated on that.

Again I say - a huge problem is the polarization in society. The left has absolutely contributed to that.

I'll just quote myself since you apparently did not read what I wrote. I don't know how to be any clearer
I asked you to tell me how “the left”, broadly speaking, is responsible for the polarization. Personally I think the far right, neonazis, ethnonationalist forces with power, were in full control of starting that polarization...with high level tactics. It’s well documented now. So..tell me how the left is responsible for that?


It’s like saying the victim is responsible for spousal abuse, when maybe the victim mouthed off (ok they are responsible for that, and that is free expression) to the spouse for being a jerk to them in some way, but the spouse had power and physical force on their side and whapped them with it hard, injured them, and continued to threaten them and plot against them. But on a massive organized scale. If the “spouse” is the far right, that’s a monstrous, evil, piece of work. And it needs to be divorced...there is no relationship possibility with that. If there ever is going to be any workable relationship again, it’s their responsibility to change their attitude and behaviour, but there needs to be distance first - and the victim needs to be protected while that happens. The “two sides” are not comparable.
 
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There can be no mediation either, until the threat dies down.... the only thing that will do that is deplatforming far right views (and that certainly includes not electing politicians flirting with far right views). I don’t see how else.
 
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It’s one thing when people on the right won’t recognize how the polarization started on the right because they have blind loyalty to the right and whatever party represents it. It’s quite another when people on the left and “centre” won’t recognize it. I’m quite sure there’s precedent for that in the 30s.

I don’t like the fact that conservatives and neoliberal centrists will - and quite a few already say they wiill - vote for someone who flirts with nazis just because they speak of fiscal responsibility. Is that even a reasonable “agreed to disagree” situation? “Fiscal responsibility” and nazis is a really bad mix. Couldn’t be worse. 1000% worse than 4 more years of Justin. I guess for many of those who would withstand the damage because of their status and stature, money is more important. Is it really? If so, that is really sad.

If anyone wants want to look at the polarization one can’t do it without recognizing the far right/ fascist/ neonazi issue...it’s why things are so polarized. They created the tipping point, deliberately, and from high places. It was already happening before Trump. He gave it fuel in North America. And that was orchestrated from the right!
 
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I’m just going to make one more comment here tonight, succinctly...I think this should be obvious but apparently it’s not so obvious.

The polarization exists because all the groups the white nationalists and nazis say shouldn’t exist are understandably unhappy with that prospect...it’s quite a bit more acute when politicians and presidents hold those ideas, or are engaging with those who hold those ideas, for votes. And when so many of those close to the centre are silent or looking the other way, or think it’s just that the loony lefties are overreacting, because the issue doesn’t affect them that much right now, it gets people who are or would be abjectly affected understandably upset. Is that clear now? It’s not extreme to not want nazis to take over. No matter how much people are vocal in opposing it...they are not responsible for causing it.
 
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First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. ~Martin Neimoller, 1946

:cry:
 
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Still this overwhelming avarice ... as the consequence of power of control ... a false image? Even some leaders suffer under illusions that they deny!

Could it be to the influence of a greater psyche that is black to our vision and thus mysteriously unseen as dissociative personality function?

Does allow formation of abstract visions ...

Then there is the dream of superiority from that social structure well underneath the powers of superior tyranny and thus the whole thing blows ... until the winds of war calm due to lack of input ... a funny thing when we worship industrialized out put causing dissociation ... a word used in the formation of abstraction ... a dark area to be sure!

Hello silence my old friend separated from the light disturbance out in Sundance! It is an outside draw ... an external Black Hole?

Are we in one and thus a blind tuit ... or just closed circle? Templar go round ... pariah? Lobe that one out there ... as missal!
 
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First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

We can infer with some confidence that in the yet undocumented earliest poetic version(s), whether spoken by Niemöller himself or not, Communists came first, then Socialists/Social Democrats/trade unionists or Jews, perhaps depending on which language and which venue.

Niemöller's original argument was premised on naming groups he and his audience would instinctively not care about.

When his poem is invoked today it is usually to add one's own group to the list of persecuted (and omit the ones that they still wish to persecute?).

The version excluding Communists at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum--is definitely historically incorrect, and indeed distorts both Niemöller's politics and original meaning.

Niemöller, a decorated career naval officer in World War I, was a conservative German nationalist. He turned to theology in the early 1920s after the German navy had been disbanded under the terms of the Versailles treaty. He was the pastor of St. Ann's church in the wealthy Berlin district Dahlem from 1931 until his arrest in 1937. He welcomed Hitler's accession to power in 1933, objecting only to state encroachment on Church policy, in particular the exclusion of Christians with Jewish ancestry from serving as officers of the Church.

In September 1933, in protest against the official German Protestant Church's willingness to accept Nazi interference in church affairs, he formed the Pastor's Emergency League, which became the Confessing Church in October 1934.

Niemöller's continued outspokenness against some Nazi rules finally led to his arrest in July 1937 and trial in February 1938. Although his 7-month sentence was less than the 8 months he had served in Moabit prison, so that he should have been released, Hitler personally had him sent to the Sachsenhausen concentration camp for "preventative detention." (deplatforming?)

(Kind of like Julian Assange and Chelsea Manning?)


It is important to understand that, except for Nazi decrees regarding Church policy, Niemöller was an avid Hitler supporter. As he later readily admitted, he sent Hitler a personal telegram of congratulations after Germany's withdrawal from the League of Nations in October 1933. Witnesses say that Niemöller greeted his Dahlem congregation with the Hitler salute, and at his 1938 trial he boasted about his patriotic unwillingness to turn over his submarine to the British after the November 1918 armistice, about his leadership of a Freikorpsbattalion in putting down a left-wing insurgency in 1920, and that he had voted Nazi since 1924. He also testified in his defense that he found Jews "disagreeable and alien," which was typical of an"officer in the Kaiser's navy" from a "Westphalian family of peasants and clerics.

When Pastor Niemöller was put in a concentration camp we wrote the year 1937; when the concentration camp was opened we wrote the year 1933, and the people who were put in the camps then were Communists. Who bothered with them? We knew it, it was printed in the newspapers. Who raised their voice, maybe the Confessing Church? We thought: Communists, those opponents of religion, those enemies of Christians -"should I be my brother's keeper?" Then they did away with the sick, the so-called incurables.

I remember a conversation I had with a person who claimed to be a Christian. He said: Perhaps it's right, these incurably sick people just cost the state money, they are just a burden to themselves and to others. Isn't it best all-around if they are taken out of the middle [of society]?

Only then did it start affecting the Church as such. Then we started making noise, until our public voices again fell silent.

Can we say, we aren't guilty/responsible? The persecution of the Jews, the way we treated the occupied countries, or the things in Greece, in Poland, in Czechoslovakia or in Holland, which were even written in the newspapers ...We preferred to keep silent. We are certainly not without guilt, and I ask myself over and over again what would have happened if we had in 1933 or 1934--"And only after that did the attack on the Church itself begin. Then we did have our say, and did so until 'officially' silenced too.

Possibility--14,000 Protestant pastors and all Protestant congregations in Germany, if we had defended the truth with our lives. If we had said back then, it is not right when Hermann Göring simply puts 100,000 Communists in concentration camps, to let them die. I can imagine that then perhaps 30,000 to 40,000 Protestant Christians would have been made a head shorter, but can also imagine that we would have saved the lives of 30-40 million people, which is what it costs us now. "

Anyway ... there is a lot more to this than meets the eye with the first they came for refrain ...

Is it important to note that 1st they came for the Communist ... depends on your point of view I suppose.


In a March 1955 speech by African-American Communist activist Claude Lightfoot (1910-1991). Lightfoot, who had been convicted under the Smith Act for being a member of the Communist party, told his Los Angeles audience: It was under the smokescreen of "anti-Communism" that Hitler led the German people and the rest of the world to the brink of disaster. What proof do we still need in America before we learn the lesson of Pastor Niemoller?-"When Communists were jailed, it was all right--we weren't Communists," said Niemoller. "When Jews were hounded, we didn't care. When the union leaders were arrested, we preferred to keep quiet .... When I was jailed--it was too late."Here the groups are Communists, Jews and union leaders, and the actions are more varied, namely jailed/hounded/arrested, and all right/didn't care/keep quiet. This not only indicates that Lightfoot had heard or read this from a different source than the teacher interviewed by Mayer, but also that he had a model with very precise actions. Interestingly, in a related pamphlet published about Lightfootthat same year, the poetic version is rendered in bold and block form as a direct quotation of Niemöller: For those who still feel that what happens to the Communists won't affect them, let them think over the words of Pastor Martin Niemöller, world famous German Protestant and leader of the World Council of Churches:

"When the Communists were jailed, it was all right, we weren't Communists.
"When the Jews were hounded, we didn't care.
"When the union leaders were arrested --we preferred to keep quiet; we were not union members.
"When I was jailed --it was too late to do anything."

 
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Is it best if the common people don;t know this stuff?

What we don't know won't kill us right! Oh look an 800 pound Teddy Bear ... let's get a selfie!
 
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